DUST Search - Liking Chromosome Over Uprisping, Answer: *Roles*, Also CCP's Uprising Paral...

Vyzion Eyri wrote:

Kasote Denzara wrote:

HAVs, logistics, assaults. Slayers. There's too many options and benefits to being a slayer, the most mindless of things, than anything else. We make the roles. We're digging this hole. It's our fault. It is in us, the people, that define the roles and control the field. We made the mistake of loosening the grip and now it's all gone to ****. CCP is the only one that can step in now and I feel they are too afraid to make that step.

This is changing, I reckon. Between the vehicle rebalance and the huge buff to repair tools, logibroing has never been more profitable and I don't even have to kill a single soul to get to the top of the leaderboard sometimes. If people simply choose to slay over all else, then good. Slayers should be mainstream. If everyone ran logibro, then no one does the killing.

There's certainly lack of innovative roles but I would not call it mindlessness, I would call it the tendency for people to fall back on what they're comfortable with. And in an FPS, that's shooting other people with an assault rifle. Mindlessness is more like people banging their heads on a wall without stopping to try break through when there is a door next to them. The assault works, it isn't a complete waste of time and is beneficial to the team so it takes some degree of logic and intelligence to make the decision to kill people.

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The only decision CCP has to make is about how many new dropsuits they want to introduce. After all the racial variants missing, plus pilot suits, what's next? How much further is it envisaged to expand? Unique pilot suits for each vehicle type? Pirate faction dropsuits? Specialisations of specialisations (like say variants of assault suits with different suit bonuses)?

The further they expand, the less clearly roles will be defined by the game and more by the players in their innovation. If they choose not to expand dropsuits and instead focus on modules, same thing, more variation with modules.

Roles in Chromosome were defined because there was so little to choose from, and the massive drop of new dropsuits and weapons in Uprising changed that. As more and more content comes in, roles will be less and less clear to a beginning player, and I reckon that's cooler than having everything defined for you.

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Oswald Rehnquist 543	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:39:00 - [1] - Quote Was not due to more content, better graphics, hit detection, perfect balance, or less bugs, but more solidified roles (some people are against this though) Assaults felt like sweepers, heavies like wall breakers, scouts like skirmishers, and logistics as support. And as such we indisputably saw more diversity in unit choices, game play, and tactics. Thus I think just the simple aspect of more varied hostile encounters made Chromosome more dynamics. I think the least happy players in this build were logistics because assault players had consistent and solid teamwork between them with keeping up each other's health/ammo, which ate into logistics utility. The changes in uprising gave a lot more leeway for even more utility and even more customization, which really boosted those who could take the most advantage of it, this is where we saw our sad logistic players start rising up to their current position. Scouts and heavies with their lower slot and cpu/pg count couldn't take advantage of the new content quite as well, combine with the fact that their cultural weapons of choice got nerfed decreased the encounters with these two suits, leaving medium frames for +85-90% of all encounters as there has been a small on going exodus from both of the niche suits for about a year. They actually went down pretty quietly until the last 2 to 3 patches where frustrations starting building up. Assaults are by no means weak as I still see them as marginally the best slayers in the game but they do see that their sweeping prowess is no longer a unique feature of the suit as logis get pretty close to mimicking them, but the versatility of logis are what the assaults are most envious of due to how versatility is a battle turning mechanic. Logis on the other hand remember the circle jerk buddy buddy system assaults had back in chromosome, so are very resistant to being put back on the sidelines. And with these two suits being the most popular, most discussed balancing on the forums that are given any serious thought are between medium to medium specialties. So I think between the subtle moan and groan scouts/heavies and the venomous assault v logis, CCP has actually decreased their involvement and have made less radical changes to dust. Not wanting the niche suits to upset the main frames CCP has left scouts/heavies almost dead last (even behind vehicles users). Also CCP is not touching roles or making the tweaks like they use to do for fear of upsetting the now established vet community. I find this interesting because the health of the game will revolve around maintaining customization but will still hinge upon noticable roles, which CCP has dropped the ball on. Role variations doesn't exist to any meaningful extent and as such game play is literally been reduced to a limited set of tactics with the added irony of massive amounts of choices. Uprising has added content, improved graphics/hit detection, fewer bugs, but the next few months are thy hardest part, and that is role creation, because crafting this is what will upset certain player camps the most. And we are getting to the point to where this is the last and largest hurtle for dust. So I guess I was curious on what you guys thought on the subject, and on the sliding scale of Roles to just open slots customization, what needs to be done and what is to be expected? What role utility is allowed and what examples of such do you think is fair? I don't really expect to get a lot of hits here, but I was more or less thinking out loud, regardless thank you for your time. Below 28 dB
Joel II X AHPA 135	Posted - 2013.11.13 05:03:00 - [2] - Quote I, personally, like having roles. If it was open slot, most players would go for a slayer build. With scouts, it encourages people to think and be more careful in your fights since you don't have much health. With assaults, it encourages people to be the guy who's in the action shooting first. Logi should be support. And heavies, well, unless you fit yours well, you should stick with at least one more guy to sweep up an objective. This SHOULD emphasize teamwork. Logo x heavy is among the most favored teams there are. I worked with a random blue as a scout and my scanner allowed him to hunt his prey wisely instead of just rushing walking in to a 5 on 1. Top squads use good teamwork. That's why there are rules. If you go solo, you better have a good suit and find ways to not get surrounded by a whole squad.
Outer Raven Capital Acquisitions LLC Public Disorder. 27	Posted - 2013.11.13 08:19:00 - [3] - Quote Are you proposing tiericide then for optimal suit customization. If so I agree with Joel II X that most will opt for slayer play styles as most suits (Heavy, Medium, an Light) are being used for now. I agree with the OP sentiment that true roles have taken a backseat for the revolving door of assault an logistics. Apart from the assault (generalist suit) the other roles should progressively branch out into more defined niches that can only be accomplished at the highest end by said suit. For logistics they could stay close to how they are now with a few new healing methods an tools at higher specs. Heavy suits can operate almost as vehicle do with hardeners for short burst of invulnerability and other resistance mods at higher spec levels. An finally scouts will have access to specialized equipment an mods to augment their visibility (camo), jumping abilities, debuf other suits, an tacnec disruption, etc. I believe on the scout subject Oswald did a nice extensive post on such mods. All in all with the hit detection working better now, maybe some much needed additions an changes can take place in game across the board that where not address or done so poorly due to bad in game mechanics. That's just my 2 ISK anyway. Gû¦Gû+ Outer Raven /// Sniper /// Head Hunter Gû+Gû¦
Rahl Draak Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2013.11.13 08:54:00 - [4] - Quote Chromosome didn't have bad hit detection. It had NO AIM ASSIST. CCP then catered to the 11 year olds, and the rest is history with regards to the slow decline in player numbers.
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 749	Posted - 2013.11.13 09:41:00 - [5] - Quote Unfortunately, people are weak. They'll flock to the next easy thing. No pride, no shame, no fortitude. So long as there are sheep, there will be mindlessness. There's only a few options these days and they all sadden me. "Roles" are not predefined in Dust 514, which makes them a creation of the player. (See my heavy nova knife ninja for an example.) "Slayer" is the easiest and the most mindless of all the "roles" seen on the field. The "medic" is more attention and ability demanding, as the medic sacrifices "self-power" for the "power for others" sort of deal. (See the logibros that aren't giving up.) I had to think about the light set of suits for a while before I could come to terms with a suitable way to describe them. They are the smallest siblings of the suit family, with medium in between it and the (largest) heavy. The lights can preform similar to the medium, but they are not as strong. They are faster, but (again) not as strong. Before I break to the heavy member, let me say that both the light and medium are the most open and able to "roles". They both can be medics or slayers. Most use them for the "slayer" role. Now for the heavy. The heavy is big, slow, but strong. It can carry a weapon that would crush the other two. However, they sacrifice more than the other two in order to even hold them. They sacrifice the versatility that light and medium have. They're limited strongly on what they can do. There's only one heavy that can even carry equipment, but it suffers in another way. The sheer problem that we're facing is "too much mindlessness". Too many slayer options and little for anything else. The lights are fragile and are outclassed by mediums that opt modules right. In the medium section, the logistic suit is a better option than assault to slay, as it has more versatility than the assault. This same suit, this logistic, is everything the assault is and more. It's superior to slay. It's superior to medic. People realized this and the other suits have become... lesser in a way. The heavy's only two weapons are not reliable, the scout will have a heart attack if you sneeze at it, the dropship pilot will implode at the mention of forge gun. What's left? HAVs, logistics, assaults. Slayers. There's too many options and benefits to being a slayer, the most mindless of things, than anything else. We make the roles. We're digging this hole. It's our fault. It is in us, the people, that define the roles and control the field. We made the mistake of loosening the grip and now it's all gone to ****. CCP is the only one that can step in now and I feel they are too afraid to make that step. If you think Plasma Rifles take skill to use and are fine as they are, you are the problem.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2114	Posted - 2013.11.13 09:46:00 - [6] - Quote Rahl Draak wrote: Chromosome didn't have bad hit detection. It had NO AIM ASSIST. CCP then catered to the 11 year olds, and the rest is history with regards to the slow decline in player numbers. It did have bad hit detection depending on the hitbox This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2292	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:08:00 - [7] - Quote It had atrocious hit detection. Completely atrocious. I don't know how you people can possibly forget that.
Aaroniero d'Lioncourt The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 262	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:21:00 - [8] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: It had atrocious hit detection. Completely atrocious. I don't know how you people can possibly forget that. They always find something these b*tches gotta complain about.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1999	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:34:00 - [9] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: HAVs, logistics, assaults. Slayers. There's too many options and benefits to being a slayer, the most mindless of things, than anything else. We make the roles. We're digging this hole. It's our fault. It is in us, the people, that define the roles and control the field. We made the mistake of loosening the grip and now it's all gone to ****. CCP is the only one that can step in now and I feel they are too afraid to make that step. This is changing, I reckon. Between the vehicle rebalance and the huge buff to repair tools, logibroing has never been more profitable and I don't even have to kill a single soul to get to the top of the leaderboard sometimes. If people simply choose to slay over all else, then good. Slayers should be mainstream. If everyone ran logibro, then no one does the killing. There's certainly lack of innovative roles but I would not call it mindlessness, I would call it the tendency for people to fall back on what they're comfortable with. And in an FPS, that's shooting other people with an assault rifle. Mindlessness is more like people banging their heads on a wall without stopping to try break through when there is a door next to them. The assault works, it isn't a complete waste of time and is beneficial to the team so it takes some degree of logic and intelligence to make the decision to kill people. - The only decision CCP has to make is about how many new dropsuits they want to introduce. After all the racial variants missing, plus pilot suits, what's next? How much further is it envisaged to expand? Unique pilot suits for each vehicle type? Pirate faction dropsuits? Specialisations of specialisations (like say variants of assault suits with different suit bonuses)? The further they expand, the less clearly roles will be defined by the game and more by the players in their innovation. If they choose not to expand dropsuits and instead focus on modules, same thing, more variation with modules. Roles in Chromosome were defined because there was so little to choose from, and the massive drop of new dropsuits and weapons in Uprising changed that. As more and more content comes in, roles will be less and less clear to a beginning player, and I reckon that's cooler than having everything defined for you. "When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
Acturus Galaxy Happy Pumpkin 171	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:39:00 - [10] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: It had atrocious hit detection. Completely atrocious. I don't know how you people can possibly forget that. Because they were all running ARs with sharpshooter 5 going easy mode with keyboard and mouse. I was a heavy in chromosome using DS3 for the first few months and remember it was terrible unbalanced until I switched to mouse. I remember it was mandatory to have level 5 sharpshooter to be viable. Played heavy myself. As I remember most was using ARs in Chromosome, there was very few logi as everyone with 2 equipment slots managed fine without the logi. Today we at least have the AR crowd divided between the scrambler rifle and AR for variety. I see less lasers, and less HMGs now but I see more forge guns and shotguns. I see a descent mix of logi and assault medium frames and about the same amount of scouts as previously. The sidearm is very underrated.

Oswald Rehnquist 550	Posted - 2013.11.14 02:52:00 - [11] - Quote Acturus Galaxy wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: It had atrocious hit detection. Completely atrocious. I don't know how you people can possibly forget that. Because they were all running ARs with sharpshooter 5 going easy mode with keyboard and mouse. I was a heavy in chromosome using DS3 for the first few months and remember it was terrible unbalanced until I switched to mouse. I remember it was mandatory to have level 5 sharpshooter to be viable. Played heavy myself. As I remember most was using ARs in Chromosome, there was very few logi as everyone with 2 equipment slots managed fine without the logi. Today we at least have the AR crowd divided between the scrambler rifle and AR for variety. I see less lasers, and less HMGs now but I see more forge guns and shotguns. I see a descent mix of logi and assault medium frames and about the same amount of scouts as previously. The sidearm is very underrated. I would say that the scout and heavy population was a lot more common in chrom, which made shotguns and hmgs more prevalent in chrom. Sidearms become more popular in uprising due to the expansion of it and the shotgun being unreliable for quite some time. Below 28 dB
Oswald Rehnquist 550	Posted - 2013.11.14 02:55:00 - [12] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: HAVs, logistics, assaults. Slayers. There's too many options and benefits to being a slayer, the most mindless of things, than anything else. We make the roles. We're digging this hole. It's our fault. It is in us, the people, that define the roles and control the field. We made the mistake of loosening the grip and now it's all gone to ****. CCP is the only one that can step in now and I feel they are too afraid to make that step. This is changing, I reckon. Between the vehicle rebalance and the huge buff to repair tools, logibroing has never been more profitable and I don't even have to kill a single soul to get to the top of the leaderboard sometimes. If people simply choose to slay over all else, then good. Slayers should be mainstream. If everyone ran logibro, then no one does the killing. There's certainly lack of innovative roles but I would not call it mindlessness, I would call it the tendency for people to fall back on what they're comfortable with. And in an FPS, that's shooting other people with an assault rifle. Mindlessness is more like people banging their heads on a wall without stopping to try break through when there is a door next to them. The assault works, it isn't a complete waste of time and is beneficial to the team so it takes some degree of logic and intelligence to make the decision to kill people. - The only decision CCP has to make is about how many new dropsuits they want to introduce. After all the racial variants missing, plus pilot suits, what's next? How much further is it envisaged to expand? Unique pilot suits for each vehicle type? Pirate faction dropsuits? Specialisations of specialisations (like say variants of assault suits with different suit bonuses)? The further they expand, the less clearly roles will be defined by the game and more by the players in their innovation. If they choose not to expand dropsuits and instead focus on modules, same thing, more variation with modules. Roles in Chromosome were defined because there was so little to choose from, and the massive drop of new dropsuits and weapons in Uprising changed that. As more and more content comes in, roles will be less and less clear to a beginning player, and I reckon that's cooler than having everything defined for you. Logibro does not equate to no killing, so if everybody ran logibro there would still be a game but a very boring one. I agree with you that the suit variation issue will become an issue, I think the Commando is an example of that. The more pressing item I see is the balancing with what they have currently because we already have our player blocs and our own idea of what should be etc. Below 28 dB
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 2197	Posted - 2013.11.14 02:56:00 - [13] - Quote Remember how people used to sh*t their pants when they heard a shotgun? Those were the days ...
Oswald Rehnquist 550	Posted - 2013.11.14 02:59:00 - [14] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Remember how people would sh*t their pants when they heard a shotgun behind them? Those were the days ... I also remember how heavies made medium ar users turn tail and flee when they saw one in close range. I have a sibling that plays sentinels and the reaction that the suit used to bring out of players was priceless. Now its more like a stand and trade off shots to see who wins. Below 28 dB
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 618	Posted - 2013.11.14 03:13:00 - [15] - Quote Heres the problem I forsee if we give scouts their "roles" Scouts will turn into useless pieces of crap that arnt fun to play (Not that they arnt close already) Scouts to me have always been the fast, high alpha damage hit and run suit. Yet forum users seem to think scouts shouldnt be able to kill other suits and should sit 400 meters away from people "scouting". Scout, Tanker, Dropship Pilot, AV'r Alts - Medrean Delt / Moselder Telend (Pure Innocence) / Mledean Delt (Capsuleer)
Outer Raven Capital Acquisitions LLC Public Disorder. 27	Posted - 2013.11.14 10:29:00 - [16] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Heres the problem I forsee if we give scouts their "roles" Scouts will turn into useless pieces of crap that arnt fun to play (Not that they arnt close already) Scouts to me have always been the fast, high alpha damage hit and run suit. Yet forum users seem to think scouts shouldnt be able to kill other suits and should sit 400 meters away from people "scouting". I certainly never mentioned scouts not killing, just surfing the perimeter every match would be boring for anybody and would damn it to obscurity. Just would like to see its abilities of speed, jump height,etc. greatly boosted with new specialized mods an equipment. Gû¦Gû+ Outer Raven /// Sniper /// Head Hunter Gû+Gû¦
Acturus Galaxy Happy Pumpkin 174	Posted - 2013.11.14 10:54:00 - [17] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Heres the problem I forsee if we give scouts their "roles" Scouts will turn into useless pieces of crap that arnt fun to play (Not that they arnt close already) Scouts to me have always been the fast, high alpha damage hit and run suit. Yet forum users seem to think scouts shouldnt be able to kill other suits and should sit 400 meters away from people "scouting". It depends on how you like to play a scout role. I hope they will keep it open and not turn it into a fast high damage hit and run suit which in my opinion is too narrow and boring. I prefer they focus more on ewar and all the possibilities that lies in ewar warfare. Keep the high dps role for the heavies.


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