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Talking About Perfect Imbalance

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Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1181	Posted - 2013.11.10 15:30:00 - [1] - Quote I didn't know where this went, so if a dev can move it to the correct place, thank you. <3 A while ago, I was linked to this youtube video on Perfect Imbalance, and haven't seen it since, so I'm hoping to bring it back and hopefully get the devs to notice it, and, with time, possibly work on executing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=e31OSVZF77w <- Video on Perfect Imbalance by Extra Credits Basically, what the video is saying is that you must have a carefully crafted imbalance. Not to the point where one thing is incredibly OP, but just a small enough difference to make it so, for example, Assault Rifle wins over Shotgun at mid-long ranges. Think of that optical illusion, with the staircase that is always going down but then starts to cycle. (Clicky) Now, imagine there being 4 different elements, or weapons rather, on the staircase. The weapon that is on top of the one that is currently "OP", but just OP enough to make it seem better. Not to the point where it wins every engagement. The stairs in between each platform is the action of finding a new tactic and/or weapon to use. So we start with Assault Rifles, and they seem better than everything else. So everyone starts using the Assault Rifle. But then some players, who haven't really skilled into Assault Rifles and want for there to be something else, start searching for something to beat the AR. That action is our stairs. Sooner or later, they find the Shotgun. So then the Shotgun starts looking like the best, making the AR look weak. But then someone looks for a thing to beat the Shotgun, and they find the HMG, and then the cycle continues, just like our staircase. What this creates, basically, is a constantly evolving meta-game. It makes the players think about what they're doing and create strategies, tactics, and fittings based on what the current "FoTM" is. Now, I'm not talking a whole month+ of only ARs or only Shotgun, maybe more like a week, but it all depends on the will of the players to find something new to do. DUST, however, has many different factors involved, which is why this process will take a while. You need to worry about modules, tanking type, speed, range, weapon, and all that stuff before you can do these things. And if anything, that makes it a more engaging and generally fun experience. Example: -Shotgun wins over Laser Rifle in CQC -Laser Rifle wins over Assault Rifle at long-range -Assault Rifle wins over Shotgun at mid-range And this creates a cycle. BUT, if we added tanking types, it'd make a huge difference. Example, the Shotgun and AR would do the same amount of damage to both shield and armor, but if the Assault Rifle guy was an Armor Tanker, the Laser Rifle would maybe lose the fight. On the flip side, if the Assault Rifle guy was a Shield Tanker, he'd lose VS. the Laser Rifle. The games that do Perfect Imbalanced very well are usually good games. Pokemon, for example, is still a well-known and widely-played game that flawlessly executes Perfect Imbalance. Now, forgive me, because I'm not a big Pokemon player, but a low-level water Pokemon still has a fairly good chance of KOing a higher-level fire Pokemon. And a low-level grass Pokemon can KO a higher-level water Pokemon, and Fire > Plant, and the cycle continues. See what I'm saying? But, here's the cool part. If everything is carefully thought out, and Perfect Imbalancing is implemented over many months, maybe even a year, then it could already be a better game, because everything is made in a way where nothing is OP and everything is sort of balanced. This leaves it to the mind and skill of the player to beat someone with the currently "OP" weapon. Example: Shotgun VS. HMG. With enough skill, fitting expertise, and knowledge, a Shotgun can win out over an HMG at point blank, where normally a HMG melts the Shotgunner. So yup. I'll leave the second post reserved just in case anything else comes to mind, but right now that's it. I'd like a constructive and troll-free zone in this thread, and let's keep it clean. :) ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1181	Posted - 2013.11.10 15:31:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Lorhak Gannarsein 570	Posted - 2013.11.10 15:50:00 - [3] - Quote soooooooo... remove AV nades? but seriously, +1. Too busy clicking cookies to play DUST...
Jacques Cayton II Providence Guard Templis Dragonaors 91	Posted - 2013.11.10 15:56:00 - [4] - Quote You do realize hmg loses to everything right
Shadow heat Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 162	Posted - 2013.11.10 16:00:00 - [5] - Quote I think Borderlands is a much better example of perfect imbalance, but i see what you trying to say. Still, this will be a monumental effort for CCP, they have expend the past 4 years trying to achieve perfect balance, so imbalance may sound like an alien language to them. But like i said, Borderlands 2 is the most perfectly imbalance game i had ever play. Fun is the enjoyment of pleasure, particularly in leisure activities.
CharCharOdell 1498	Posted - 2013.11.10 16:00:00 - [6] - Quote then remove av nades and swarms. Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1184	Posted - 2013.11.10 16:03:00 - [7] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: You do realize hmg loses to everything right This is all theoretical. Just like the AR wins to everything. Besides, in CQC, I can melt anyone besides proto-bears with an HMG. :P ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Cosgar ParagonX 7577	Posted - 2013.11.10 16:04:00 - [8] - Quote CCP tends to favor incomparables over perfect imbalances since their games are incomplete. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1184	Posted - 2013.11.10 16:08:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar, I'd like to point out that EVE Online is a complete and fine game. It's been going strong for about a decade and has a fairly large playerbase compared to DUST. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Lorhak Gannarsein 571	Posted - 2013.11.10 16:11:00 - [10] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: then remove av nades and swarms. I think in this context swarms are the most balanced AV weapon in the game, considering you can AP with a forge Too busy clicking cookies to play DUST...

Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1184	Posted - 2013.11.10 16:12:00 - [11] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: then remove av nades and swarms. OR make vehicles strong enough to take it, and a Shield-Tanking AV weapon. So then, for example, a Madrugar will have a hard time standing up to a Swarm Launcher, but a Gunnlogi would have no problem. Of course, vehicle balancing and AV rebalancing would need to be implemented before this is done. The same would work with a Shield AV weapon, say the Heavy Laser? It would work wonders VS a Gunnlogi, but a Madrugar could easily solve the problem. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1551	Posted - 2013.11.10 16:45:00 - [12] - Quote Well said "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2066	Posted - 2013.11.10 17:08:00 - [13] - Quote There are a lot of Extra Credits videos CCP needs to take note of. This is a good place to start. No.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1554	Posted - 2013.11.10 21:00:00 - [14] - Quote I am fairly certain that CCP is already basing their game design on Perfect Imbalance, or something similar. This is why some weapons do more damage against Armor while others do more damage against shields. If shield tanking becomes popular it makes the laser and scrambler rifles really good, while if Armor tanking is popular it makes projectile and explosive weapons better. When one weapon becomes good, people switch to a tanking style that counters it. It is also referred to as the Rock, Paper, Scissors approach, where every play style has a play style it is stronger than, and a play style it is weaker than. Of course right now I think the Assault Rifle vs HMG may be a case of Scissors cutting Rock. I am sure they will fix it though.
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 683	Posted - 2013.11.10 21:23:00 - [15] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I am fairly certain that CCP is already basing their game design on Perfect Imbalance, or something similar. This is why some weapons do more damage against Armor while others do more damage against shields. If shield tanking becomes popular it makes the laser and scrambler rifles really good, while if Armor tanking is popular it makes projectile and explosive weapons better. When one weapon becomes good, people switch to a tanking style that counters it. It is also referred to as the Rock, Paper, Scissors approach, where every play style has a play style it is stronger than, and a play style it is weaker than. Of course right now I think the Assault Rifle vs HMG may be a case of Scissors cutting Rock. I am sure they will fix it though. I was thinking something similar; your post eloquently describes my thoughts. +1 to this and the OP. The idea is sound, and I believe CCP is heading there.
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1189	Posted - 2013.11.10 22:39:00 - [16] - Quote CCP is certainly heading there in terms of dropsuit tanking types and vehiclular tanking types, but when it comes to weapons, I feel, personally, it's AR or nothing. This isn't an AR QQ thread though, this is me trying to point out what CCP should be doing with ALL weapons. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 949	Posted - 2013.11.10 22:48:00 - [17] - Quote We are already trying this, each weapon has its place that it should own in, the stairs is how you go about getting to that spot! The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1555	Posted - 2013.11.10 23:38:00 - [18] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: CCP is certainly heading there in terms of dropsuit tanking types and vehiclular tanking types, but when it comes to weapons, I feel, personally, it's AR or nothing. This isn't an AR QQ thread though, this is me trying to point out what CCP should be doing with ALL weapons. The Assault Rifle became OP when they fixed other aspects of the game which effected the Assault Rifle. It was not intentional. The Assault Rifle is intended to be slightly OP, but is not supposed to be anywhere near as good as it is currently. CCP will do something about it. I think they are examining the situation closely though so they donGÇÖt break something else trying to fix it.
CharCharOdell 1511	Posted - 2013.11.10 23:55:00 - [19] - Quote AR breaks the game. Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
dogmanpig black market bank 31	Posted - 2013.11.11 00:00:00 - [20] - Quote in the terms of AR being OP its weakness is it does little to vehicles and its not the most powerful CQC weapon. its weakness to vehicle is easy, it attaches av nades and it can now kill vehicles and its not a bad CQC weapon, it actually better then SMG which is meant for CQC. the only thing that could beat the AR in CQC is shotgun and HMG and the AR has the better chance vs everything else. the LR is limited to a small range set to beat the AR and sniper is limted to extreme ranges to beat everything else. so for most purposes the AR wins in just about every case. You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 7 1/3 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"

Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1957	Posted - 2013.11.11 00:27:00 - [21] - Quote The Penrose stairs certainly works for games like league of legends and Pokemon, but think about the only varying factors in each game. The champions in LoL, or the Pokemon and team composition. That's all. In terms of items, there are defined items that are simply better than others and there is rarely need to change that. In terms of maps, Pokemon battles all take place in essentially the same way, and LoL takes place in 1 very popular map, with the other two being mainly for fun. Here in DUST, fittings are a Penrose staircase of their own. Hell, each individual module leads to further balancing necessities. So do maps. So are vehicles. So is the connection between vehicles and infantry. So is the difference between the same tier of different items. So is the difference between different tiers of different items. I could go on. What we have, then, is no clear "cyclical perfect imbalance" but a labyrinth of scales and balances, balanced on bigger scales, and weighed against other scales. Here, I think, is the big reason why I see tiercide as so crucially important now. If we don't simplify the game now and find that perfect imbalance without having to worry about tiers, then once we introduce all the new content, it will only become harder. Now, I'm not saying CCP is incapable of the task, but that is the difference between DUST and games like Pokemon and LoL. There are so many variables to take into account. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1194	Posted - 2013.11.11 00:52:00 - [22] - Quote @Vyzion, you're right in the second part of your post, but I'd just like to point out that in the post I did say that in DUST there are many other variations in how a battle plays out. Including, but not limited to, tanking style, range, modules, fittings, skills, etc. Honestly, I don't understand tiercide is so important. If anyone could link me to anything to give me an explanation of what it is AND what it would mean for DUST/EVE/Whatever, that'd be great. :) @dogmanpig, you're pretty much correct. However, I'd like to say a couple things regarding to "What beats AR". 1) I've been running my GEK lately, and I kill ALL heavies unless I have half armor left on my 500+ armor fit. And even then, it doesn't happen often. AR VS. HMG = AR wins. Unless it's point-blank, 5m distance, with a GEK VS. Boundless, the AR will normally come out on top. 2) Again, while running AR, I've found that the Shotguns, because of how off-par they are (But they have certainly gotten better!) can't stand up to the AR in even it's home turf. Earlier, I was saving a squadmate from a group of Shotgunners, and all I had to do was back up. No matter how much they jumped and strafed and sprinted, the hip-fire-at-30m got them. Part of this is hit detection, the UPness of Scouts, but mostly Aim Assist. @Gaden, you're absolutely correct here. I'm sure they're going to fix these issues without making another FoTM (Or at least one so bad it kills everything), and I know that the AR got OP because they were fixing game issues, but like I said, this isn't an AR QQ nerf-cry thread, so I'm not going to say anything there. I'll just say that I trust CCP will make a wise decision on how they make the AR balanced, and that their decision will most likely be a good one. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Cosgar ParagonX 7611	Posted - 2013.11.11 00:54:00 - [23] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: Cosgar, I'd like to point out that EVE Online is a complete and fine game. It's been going strong for about a decade and has a fairly large playerbase compared to DUST. No online game is ever complete. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1236	Posted - 2013.11.11 00:58:00 - [24] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: -Shotgun wins over Laser Rifle in CQC -Laser Rifle wins over Assault Rifle at long-range -Assault Rifle wins over Shotgun at mid-range -Sometimes, if they have no decent sidearm or the shotgunner is unnoticed. -Nope, AR still out DPS's LR's in their optimal because of that there is no reason to actually use a laser because it's falloff is too drastic. -This should happen. The imbalances lie in things like this AR beats TAR in 50+ meters unless you get headshots with the TAR because the it's is given the same optimal & falloff as the AR AR beats AScR in everything but CQC because AScR has WAY too much recoil even when tap firing. AR beats shotgun in CQC unless the shotgunner has "the jump" on them, which is fine sometimes but it's nearly always that way unless the encounter happens around a corner. AR can fire falloffed rounds at a sniper at long range to throw off their aim. AR beats the GK-13 at standard level. Not to mention the burst AR is absolute crap until you hit the Allotek which costs 77K and only because it gets a fire-rate buff compared to the GK-13 Only weapon that all around has the potential to beat the AR in every situation is the ScR and that's only due to it's ability to spam fire downrange. As an avid ScR user I would even like to see it's overheat increased. In fact, the AR after sharpshooter 3-4 starts getting so little dispersion that it's accurate past 60 meters. I actually just got my complex damage mods. I can run two on my Duvolle and have gotten kills 60+ meters out. ZionTCD Director PRO Amarr Sentinel \| ADV Amarr Logi \| ADV Minmatar Scout What is a signature?
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1195	Posted - 2013.11.11 01:16:00 - [25] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Artificer Ghost wrote: Cosgar, I'd like to point out that EVE Online is a complete and fine game. It's been going strong for about a decade and has a fairly large playerbase compared to DUST. No online game is ever complete. Right, by finished I meant, if they stop putting out expansions and content, it would still be playable. There's no terrible bugs that are so gamebreaking that leaving them there would be criminal, and no FoTM that's so great it should have double the price tag. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1195	Posted - 2013.11.11 01:22:00 - [26] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: -Sometimes, if they have no decent sidearm or the shotgunner is unnoticed. -Nope, AR still out DPS's LR's in their optimal because of that there is no reason to actually use a laser because it's falloff is too drastic. -This should happen. -This is all theoretical. This is what SHOULD happen, not what CURRENTLY happens. On everything else, you're pretty much correct. I don't even ADS where I should while using an AR thanks to Sharpshooter 3 and Proficiency 3. 60+ meters sounds about right. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division 205	Posted - 2013.11.11 01:46:00 - [27] - Quote I've been, and still am able to, murder AR users using an AR just because i'm able to stand outside optimal and trigger tap- holding it down until recoil starts to have an effect, then release the trigger and reapply within 1-2 rounds' time. The only true counter to an Ar user is either mass driver with AT LEAST proficiency 3, or 1+ complex dmg mods. Sometimes, and i mean it, breach shotties can murder them, i have a std minnie light with 1 cmplx dmg mod, mlt kincat, enh cardireg, and holy hell does it work. Laser rifles need AT LEAST proficiency 2-4 and at least 1 complex dmg mod, to beat a MLT AR. Sometimes it work, sometimes it doesn't. CCP wants me to specialize? But there's so many weapons! 'Unwise SP spending mode activated'
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1196	Posted - 2013.11.11 02:29:00 - [28] - Quote Lynn, as I've said before, this is not an AR QQ thread, or a "what beats AR" thread. This is on Perfect Imbalancing. Now if we can stop talking about what can kill an AR and what can't, and get back to the topic, that'd be awesome. :P Sorry for sounding mean, didn't really mean it to be. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition


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