Just as a side note, the reason gun battle were the crucial part of the initial corp battles was because you could only have 8 players. Having 1 fewer players where the main part of the fight was happening could be a significant disadvantage. When its 16v16 having one or two off doing something else isn't such a big deal. Therefore those 'floaters'/'campers' can afford to do what they do because they DO add so much utility there.

IOW, tower snipers/equipment spammers are at least a secondary impact of having more people on the battlefield.

nerf the towers, not the forge gun whose main purpose is anti-material not anti-vehicle. it's a heavy's only effective heavy weapon.

Forge gun on roof is OK. Forge gun on roof that can shoot directly into a hack panel is not OK.

Making use of the characteristics of a weapon and positioning = crutch

What is spamming uplinks a crutch off?

Are you sure you know what that word means?

I don't read 2.0, too many typos

First off, I beleive that a future patch mentioned reducing the splash radius significantly for the FG's to counter a lot of this problem.

Second, I have to agree that if players can find an advantage in terrain or otherwise, then it is a valid tactic. That's what your brain is there to be used for, so stop complaining about another's ingenuity and start thinking of either how you can use the same for your advantage or ways to counter it.

To counter lots of equipment spamage (ie. drop uplinks) I use flux grenades. They get rid of them fast. Additionaly, if you have EVE support, an EM strike from small projectile guns in EVE has the LARGEST blast radius for an orbital and will also eliminate all uplinks just like a flux grenade does. What's more fun is it won't kill anyone as it only gets rid of shields, so if you are defending an objective you can call this one down on yourself and it eliminates all the enemy's nearby spawn points.

As for stuff hanging out on top of towers, again use your orbital strikes.

For me, the problem with Dust is that it doesn't encourage diversity. I imagine that this at the very least will get a strong rebuttal by other Ahrendee member.

So a forge gunner with logi support gets onto a high point and shoots down. I'm primarily a Sniper and secondarily a mass driver logi support. As a Sniper I've killed lots of such players. The difference is I can shoot the forge gunner and others while he has to hide and rep up or respawn, costing them a clone. If the gunner has logi support then I'm occupying two players of the opposition team. But the preference is for front line troops with arwin, not diversity.

Historically whoever has high ground has an advantage, not the advantage. Have you seen Braveheart... years of standard military practice overcome because somebody thought differently. CCP should be having to rebalance and add and nerf as we evolve new strategies, but my preference is to not nerf too much.

So an EMP orbital is a massive use of force to counter these crutches? No. It's somebody thinking of something different, congratulations for thinking of it. Eve wouldn't be the game it is (with its many faults!) If the players didn't keep evolving tactic. Just look up a Rooks and Kings video on YouTube to see them using innovative tactics, or read about Pandemic Legion creatingthe new fleet doctrines that the rest of Eve follow. That's where CCP are coming from, not Quake Live.

Yes fix arwin. Yes reduce damage in some places to increase survivability. Yes add a scramble up slight incline button (that one is a random personal gripe). Yes look at drop uplink spam (hint - max of 1 module per suit, max concurrently active based on one fitted to current suit). Yes rely on more than just front line troops in battles.

No - don't stop people using any weapon anywhere on the map they can walk, run, climb, drive or fly to. It's not a crutch or an exploit (unless it really is an exploit like terrain glitching) If somebody thought differently and came up with a good innovative tactic.

Dust won't grow if it goes head to head with other FPS, but it could if it was known for being different.

If the hand held FG fires with the power of 80GJ I'd like to know where in the heavy suit that much energy is generated to make so small a weapon comparable to so large a weapon that has an entire tank to power it.

80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon
DMG 1798
Splash 292.5
Radius 2.5m

Ishukone Assault FG
DMG 1663.2
Splash 277.2
Radius 2.1m

Alllow me to give a Physics theory counter!

When you charge the forge gun, you see a little slider move towards you down the barrel! This is the difference between the forge gun and a rail turret! Both run of coils, the rail turret uses statically charged coils, they all start positive and change to negative as the slug passes through! The forge gun uses a slider to powder each coil as needed! This is why a rail turret can fire faster with trigger held down, while the forge must charge again!

A rail gun fires by pulling the projectile out of the gun, there should be NO recoil on it at all. There are no opposing forces pushing the projectile so there's no backwards force on the gun to cause it to recoil.

How bout using two dropships? Get creative.

Not quite sure what you are getting at with that comment in regards to my post. My point is that whether you like the mechanics, choices, colors, shapes or whatever there are in fact numerous counters for just about everything tactic or weapon option out there.

Concerned with roof forgers...ok, deal with them like you deal with any tactical problem encounter in a match. Reposition snipers, suppress from a dropship, drop assaulters on him, orbital strike, ect. As rough as some balance issues are I haven't found many (really any) tactics or weapons that you can't counter.

Dust also shouldn't only be about gunning. It should be about strategy and tactics. Even if you nerf the forge gun, Skirm 2.0 still doesn't have any tactical depth of which to speak.

When KEQ discovered the FG thing we never really imagined that it would get anything like this bad. >~>

Read first line. Suspected nerf AR, ScR, or Aim-Assist thread.
Disappointed, but still love you, Ydubbs :-)

Brilliant AR time, look, its too accurate, its too powerful, its too easy! No a shotgun does not guarantee a win in cqc but it should make your stain your dropsuit when one jumps out at you, and thank the godess if you survive! There are plenty of counters to shotty scout, the md, a grenade, a hmg, a shotgun. The AR should not be a HARD counter to anything but an AR, it should be a situational counter, where you caught a niche weapon outside of its niche.

Put this way,
100/100 times a shotgun will beat another niche weapon in the shotgun's niche environment,
85/100 times a shotgun will beat an AR in the shotgun's niche environment,
50/100 times a shotgun will beat another niche weapon outside either weapons niche enviroment,
1/100 times a shotgun will an AR outside its niche environment, (assuming 1 win due to an act of god)
0/100 times a shotgun will beat another niche weapon, inside the other weapons environment,

That just does not happen at the moment!

Lol... its bad.

Because you get "used" to it, it gets worse? the people on these forums...

They put in AA in battlefield to fix latency issues with hit detection they actively tried to fix for almost a year. The aim assist has nothing to do with the need for a computer to help players aim... it had to do with fundamental game problems that couldnt be fixed otherwise.

AA will track moving targets with very minimal input.. that's a massive problem in a game like DUST... where sustained fire on the target is what gets you your results...

MAG never needed any AA....

MAG never needed any AA....

too much AR crutches yeah

Howabout stairs.. or an elevator... the game is really going to suck if we keep removing tactics instead of adding counters.

With all due respect, sir:

1) I'm not seeking AR nerf because its used by the majority of players. I'm seeking AR nerf because it has and continues to rival niche weapons while within the strict bounds of their specialty. Yes, as an oft-robbed shotgunner, this fact absolutely peeves and motivates on a personal level, but CQC imbalance also detracts from Dust's big-picture. Since Uprising, Dust has migrated from favoring squad diversity and tactics to favoring homogeneity ... namely, the more AR/ScR Medium Frames, the better the squad. My hopes are high, but I'm not sure if CCP is willing or able to correct the trend toward less diversity. I'm not alone in my criticism; see any recent commentary by CEOPyrex.

2) A fight that begins with a well-placed SG blast to the back should favor the shotgunner the vast majority of the time...this is not the case. A fight that begins with a SG blasting you head-on at 5 meters should favor the shotgunner (unless you're an HMG heavy)...this also is not the case. If your beef is with cheap tactics, then let's talk about backpedal, bunny hop, and KB/M strafe as "legitimate" shotgun counters. If your beef is with crutches, then we should discuss recoil, dispersion, hip-fire spread, instantaneous ADS and aim-assist.

3) Folks seem to forget that Jane and Annie ditched the Scout suit mid-Chromosome in favor of Biotic Assault suits. The Twins then switched to Slayer Logi in Uprising. "If they got close enough, you were sure as dead" ... this actually sounds like an appropriate description of a Shotgun. There's nothing EZ about getting into optimal range with a Shotgun. When successful, a medium-range fighter should have very low odds of survival. At present, that medium-range fighter has quite decent odds. He needs only sufficient HP to withstand the first blast and enough sense to backpedal and hip-fire his AR or ScR. Flank attack prevented. No gungame, skill, situational awareness or squad required.

TL/DR - This post is off-topic. Do not read.

I hear you, YDubbs, and would be obliged to agree to disagree.
Your opinion is one I will always respect. o7

I'm running Scout AR at the moment, pretty much just like I would a Scout Shotgun. Sneaky sneaky, engage from behind, choose targets wisely. Anyhow, those pesky Shotgun counters like back-pedaling, KB/M strafing, bunny-hopping ... ill-conceived mechanics that often foil a well-planned shotgun flank attack ... none of those work against a close-range AR from behind.

In a way, I'm hedging my bet. If CQC weapon balance and mechanics aren't deemed worthy of tweaking, then I'll be content to run AR like everyone else. Still not giving up on the Scout suit, though :p