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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1788
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Posted - 2013.11.01 15:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't get the no respec crowd. I never will.
As I've said a million times on here. It will not help a player such as myself who has multiple proto suits available, 5 proto weapons, etc. It will immensely help the new player experience as they'll be able to fix their mistakes.
I'd rather them be able to find their niche after some trial and error and then be able to specialize. They'll always be behind a player with 30 mil SP in regards to flexibility, meaning I can bring multiple proto roles to the battlefield.
That being said I still can't see how it would be game breaking in any way even for a player like myself. I am nearly maxed on all equipment (rep tool needs to go from 3 to 5), core skills nearly maxed, etc. After hacking and profile skills I'm set for an infantry character. If we got a respec today, I just can't see what vets like myself could skill into to cause any issues.
The positives of a respec far outweigh the negatives. The only issue I see is that there a mindset carried over from Eve that people are holding on to. I think we all have to remember that while the games are connected there are two very different market sectors that CCP needs to appeal to. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1789
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Posted - 2013.11.01 16:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
General John Ripper wrote:Kasote Denzara wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:I don't get the no respec crowd. I never will.
As I've said a million times on here. It will not help a player such as myself who has multiple proto suits available, 5 proto weapons, etc. It will immensely help the new player experience as they'll be able to fix their mistakes.
I'd rather them be able to find their niche after some trial and error and then be able to specialize. They'll always be behind a player with 30 mil SP in regards to flexibility, meaning I can bring multiple proto roles to the battlefield.
That being said I still can't see how it would be game breaking in any way even for a player like myself. I am nearly maxed on all equipment (rep tool needs to go from 3 to 5), core skills nearly maxed, etc. After hacking and profile skills I'm set for an infantry character. If we got a respec today, I just can't see what vets like myself could skill into to cause any issues.
The positives of a respec far outweigh the negatives. The only issue I see is that there a mindset carried over from Eve that people are holding on to. I think we all have to remember that while the games are connected there are two very different market sectors that CCP needs to appeal to. And this, ultimately, is a wording of reason that we've been trying to push against anti-respec people for a while now. It just doesn't seem to click that it affects others much largely than themselves. For those that aren't at the point where they have 20-30 mill of SP, they can get rid of the stuff they don't use if a respec was offered and specialize into something. Hell, some infantry would ooze at the idea of being able to drop the AR for a tank, and some tankers for an AR. A respec would benefit so many people it's silly. Careful planning and patience would then become meaningless. I will never buy another booster again because that will become meaningless too. CCP can say goodbye to my money and the money of many others.
I agree to a point. But the SP will still be valuable.
I don't think anything will change that dynamic. I'm not saying a once a month respec. Perhaps at milestones for a new player and then one available for purchase.
Perhaps one at 10 mil SP
Then one for purchase. Although I'm not that worried about that one, I don't need a respec. It would be nice to move out of one of my proto suits and into another, but it's not that big of a deal.
For me it's more about the absoluteness of the stance against it. It seems like more people are for a respect than against. To me I think it should be a discussion to come up with a responsible way to provide them. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1789
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 16:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:General John Ripper wrote: Careful planning and patience would then become meaningless. I will never buy another booster again because that will become meaningless too. CCP can say goodbye to my money and the money of many others.
Not everyone in Dust 514 was, or still even is, aware of New Eden's ways. It also cannot be avoided to compare this game to the other games, MMO and RPG alike, that allow you to change out for a price. If anything, CCP would see an increase of money from those that are still learning that want a change. There are also those that are bored out of their mind from using the same thing over and over again that would like to, say, do an opposite role. The picture is bigger than a handful.
I stuck with the game. I've plugged away grinding my ass off. But others haven't, if they were unhappy they could come back to 4 million SP or whatever. But during that time I've accumulated 12 mil SP and maxed out all the core stuff.
It's easy to say they shouldn't have left, but we should be concerned with keeping people in the game. I'm all for sacrificing some of the ideals that come from a separate game if it means that this game that I love will become more successful. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1790
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 16:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tallen Ellecon wrote:I come from EVE, where you essentially are paying a subscription for SP. If I forget to reque I get nothing, and lose money. This game will always give you enough free SP passively to get 5 standard weapons a week. If you cap and use boosters then you could get every advanced weapon in less than 2 month. When going into proto your essentially saying I'm going to take one weapon to 5 instead of taking 4 other weapons to 3, and that's fine but the difference between Advanced and Proto is such that you can't argue that proto is the only viable option.
Now for racial variants not released it's reasonable for a respec like in Uprising. The biggest change I've made with a respec is going from Min Logi to Gal Logi, but even in Chrome I never took my logi past standard in case there wasn't a respec. I also agree that if they overhaul vehicle or dropsuit skills like they did post uprising that a respec is fine and who is to say that you can't spec into something totally different. The second respec contributed to the large number of Cal Logis that eventually led to their "nerf" and people demanded a respec out of cal logi, similarly to the flaylock. It's an endless cycle in a game where things will constatly keep changing and being tweaked, there will be no end to people wanting respecs until they stop having them.
Assuming this game is still around in a year and there aren't too many new suits and weapons you'll have plenty of SP to spec into whatever you want. It only takes about 2 months to get enough SP for a new suit and weapon to level 5, play for a year and negelcting cores you at least 5 different full fits. I invest in cores and not new junk for that very reason.
I specced conservatively and have weathered the rebalancings for it. What will I do when my cores are maxed? Vehicles? New Suit? Weapon? Whatever I want, and I'll start at standard and work my way up like I did for my first suit.
Learn to save your SP or learn to spec into low risk skills.
I guess really in a way you are kind of agreeing with me, only you don't want respecs.
You are saying that after a while a player has so much SP that skilling into the next thing isn't really a big deal. But at 6 million SP a 2 million SP investment is huge.
The vets also had the luxury of a few resets and respecs to get to know the overall SP system to skill efficiently.
A respec for a vet isn't going to have some dramatically negative impact on the game. But a respec for a younger character could be the difference between him sticking around or not.
Perhaps this doesn't even need to be something that sticks around forever if implemented (a 10 mil SP respec). At some point a much more vibrant NPE and tutorial system would help prevent big blunders by new players.
There are plenty of ways to bring New Eden misery down on players, but making them lose interest in the game to the point of leaving for something so trivial doesn't seem worth it to me. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1790
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 16:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tallen Ellecon wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Problem being that players in the lower SP segment do not have the needed total SP to make proper use of respecs in the first place and those in the higher SP segment will stop bying boosters when they can respec instantly.
Seems like a zero-sum deal to me.
Add to this the lowered lifespan due to adaptation to shifting meta (new gear, balance) becoming "pay AUR to adapt"* instead of careful planning and long term thinking and CCP might end up with shorter player retention, and thus less revenue, than one might think at a first glance.
*in case of paid ones, that is. Exactly, people need to accept that this game can't work with respecs and still stay f2p, the grind is intentional and people need to learn how to work with and around it. Nice comment.
I'll be at 31 mil SP at the end of the 3x event. I won't have to run boosters at all anymore.
It simply will not be worth it. I have no interest in vehicles and I'll be perfectly content with the non-boosted SP gains as I skill into stuff for the heck of it. Or to save up SP for something awesome on the horizon.
At 40 to 50 mil SP I can't think of any possible reason anyone would run boosters.
I might buy LP boosters when they come out for FW, but it seems the no respec to prevent loss of AUR sales is a moot point. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1794
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:There is no excuse for respecs. Ever. Except for maybe when there is racial symmetry along suits and vehicles. I agree with this. I would also like to add an amendment: the respec only refunds the SP devoted to the Dropsuit Command and Weaponry skill trees; seeing how they are the trees being effected the most by the new skills being released. A separate respec could be done for when the rest of the racial vehicles are released. That respec would of course only refund SP spent in the Vehicle Command tree. TL;DR Only skill trees that have new dropsuits, weapons, or vehicles released for them should receive SP refunds. Trees like Dropsuit Upgrades should not have their SP refunded.
But why would someone fail to allocate their core skills?
Really you would expect someone that knows the game to skill more of their SP into the core skills and gradually build their weapons and suits. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1794
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I have a distinct feeling that we'll be getting all the racial suits at the same time as the vehicle changes with 1.7 or at least shortly after and when that happens I reckon we'll all get a full respec - this is reasonable but that is it. No respec is ever warranted after (with the single exception of when the racial vehicles come out but then only for vehicle skills).
There really is no justification for respecs. No skill is useless and nothing in this game has been "nerfed to uselessness", despite what some people here seem to think. Even for the newberries with less than 10million SP, you may spec into something you don't particularly like but you're not going to have had enough SP to get very far into anything and speccing equally into anything new will only take a week or so.
In reality the only people who will actually benefit from unrestricted respecs (whether paid or otherwise) are the vets with tens of millions of SP. The reason is that they are the only people who'll be able to fully proto out weapons/suits/whatever whenever something turns out to be a little OP or FOTM. Versatility and breadth of skills will become irrelevant because as soon as you want/need to do something different, you can just move all your SP into it and forget about whatever you used to do.
If you're one of the many people who campaign for respecs purely because you're 'bored and want to try something new', then respecs will only be a very temporary relief and you'll soon be very bored yet again. If boredom is the issue, the solution is to make the game more fun and give us more game modes and other things to do.
TL:DR - Bar a couple of select upcoming events, respecs solve no problem but break a central facet of this game, permanency.
You obviously haven't read my posts.
I have nearly 30 mil SP, I would benefit MUCH less from a respec than a person with 10-20 mil SP. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1796
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 22:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Django Quik wrote:TL:DR - Bar a couple of select upcoming events, respecs solve no problem but break a central facet of this game, permanency. You obviously haven't read my posts. I have nearly 30 mil SP, I would benefit MUCH less from a respec than a person with 10-20 mil SP. I did read your posts and it may be true that you wouldn't personally gain much from a respec because you wouldn't change anything anyway but that does not ring true for others. I clearly explained why respecs won't benefit low SP players much at all but vets stand to gain much more from moving vast amounts of SP around. Now if you really think that players with 30mil SP wouldn't benefit from respecs, then that means that nobody benefits from them because low SP players certainly don't. Thus my point stands that respecs solve no problem.
In 2 weeks after the 3x SP event I will have: 1) Core Skills Maxed (DS upgrades, L Weap OP, Weapon Up, ENG, ELE, Shield & Armor Skills maxed) 2) Grenadier L5 + 5 weapons to Prof 3 (one to prof 5) 3) 2 proto suits 4) Active Scan, Nanocircuitry, Uplinks, Repair Tool all maxed
I'll have profile skills (from 3 to 5), hacking (from 2 to 5), green bottle (3 to 5), and red bottle (4 to 5) remaining before all infantry and logi skills are maxed.
I will still be able to dump massive amounts of SP into weapons, but please explain how a RESPEC would benefit me more than a 10 SP character who probably has 50 things skilled to level 2 and a Duvalle? |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1797
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 00:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:I will still be able to dump massive amounts of SP into weapons, but please explain how a RESPEC would benefit me more than a 10 SP character who probably has 50 things skilled to level 2 and a Duvalle? Are you not reading what I've written? It is good for you that you have skilled yourself that way, well done, you are satisfied. However, there may be other people in your exact situation with that exact skill set up who suddenly decide, "Oh, I fancy running tanks this week" or "oh we need a tank in our next PC match". With respecs of any form, they'd be able to switch everything entirely into vehicles and instantly be out running proto turrets, mods and all the trimmings. That sort of instant max proto versatility is far superior to being able to put all of your 10million SP into one weapon, one suit and some select core skills. In fact, having respecs entirely circumvents the whole point of versatility and diversity. Once you've got enough SP for one specialisation maxed out, there's no need to ever earn anymore SP because whatever you need/want to do, you can just move all your SP into that at a moment's notice and then change it into the next thing you need a game later. Having more than 23million (or whatever it takes to max a role) SP would be pointless. That's pretty game breaking.
Again, you are failing to see the point.
What could I skill into that would break the game? In a given match I can bring out proto for any situation. I'm there.
The respecs won't help high SP players. They might bring a little fun to them by switching a suit or from an armor tank to a shield tank, but that isn't game breaking.
And I'm not even advocating for that. I've been talking about having one built in for a 10 mil SP character. My responses to you were to try and point out that like the Seymor from Dust Uni said, once the core skills are maxed there isn't a lot left.
I'm tired of arguing about it. It's like trying to tell a Baptist that dancing isn't bad. The indoctrination is complete for some. In my opinion a RESPEC for the 10 mil character is a good idea to help get more specialized or core skill based to help him/her down the line. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1797
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 00:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:I will still be able to dump massive amounts of SP into weapons, but please explain how a RESPEC would benefit me more than a 10 SP character who probably has 50 things skilled to level 2 and a Duvalle? Are you not reading what I've written? It is good for you that you have skilled yourself that way, well done, you are satisfied. However, there may be other people in your exact situation with that exact skill set up who suddenly decide, "Oh, I fancy running tanks this week" or "oh we need a tank in our next PC match". With respecs of any form, they'd be able to switch everything entirely into vehicles and instantly be out running proto turrets, mods and all the trimmings. That sort of instant max proto versatility is far superior to being able to put all of your 10million SP into one weapon, one suit and some select core skills. In fact, having respecs entirely circumvents the whole point of versatility and diversity. Once you've got enough SP for one specialisation maxed out, there's no need to ever earn anymore SP because whatever you need/want to do, you can just move all your SP into that at a moment's notice and then change it into the next thing you need a game later. Having more than 23million (or whatever it takes to max a role) SP would be pointless. That's pretty game breaking.
I read this again and you seem to think people want respecs at the push of a button.
And having proto doesn't make the player. You could give me maxed tank skills and I'd suck at it far longer than I'd have ISK to support the learning process.
I honestly don't want to argue with you anymore. I've stated my case with my own experience in having a lot of SP. I know what difference I could make if given a RESPEC tomorrow and it would be minimal.
Let's just agree to disagree. But for the record I don't believe high SP players need respecs. They may need some reallocation in certain areas along with all players affected by certain changes as CCP has done a few times, but not full respecs. I absolutely feel that it would be good for newer players to have the ability to straighten out their character after they've figured the game out (10 mil would be good IMO). |
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