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CharCharOdell
1444
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Posted - 2013.11.01 06:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay, I am the King of QQ and a tanker, so if anyone should be complaining, it is me, but I'm not AND I spent over 14 hours on excel theory crafting 10 gunlogi and 10 maddy fits.
The fits that will be available to you in 1.7, for maddies and gunlogis, are awesome. There will be more combinations because SHIELD BOOSTERS, SHIELD EXTENDERS, PG/CPU UPGRADES, and ARMOR PLATES are no longer necessary to make what most of us would call, at least on paper, a good tank.
The armor/shield imbalance is being restored because of the damage mod changes. Those of you who complain about this (likely Gunlogi pilots) probably never actually crunched the numbers because you will find that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Madrugar to fit a damage mod and be useful. This is because madrugars have very low CPU and damage mods take up an enormous amount of CPU and PG. Now, if you're piloting a gunlogi and you find the need to put damage mods on it, you're probably the kind of person who doesn't want to get too close to the action (probably between 300 and 600m out), so you don't need shield boosters or extenders. You MAY want a hardener if you have to duke it out with a madrugar on its last legs, but that's about it. With this 300% buff to damage mods, stacking a couple on a particle cannon, let alone a missile launcher, will destroy a madrugar without its hardeners on in seconds- SECONDS...but not a second like in Chrome, which is honestly a good thing IMO.
Also, armor tanks will not be able to rep through your insane DPS anymore, even without d-mods, so be happy. The only weakness a gunlogi has, is that if it is caught without its hardeners on, even at full health, a railgun or forge gun, at proto level, will take out its shield in 1 shot with a few damage mods, and 2 without. That means an un-hardened gunlogi dies in 3 shots of large railguns type weapons. (Yay for forge gunners!) I like this weakness.
Madrugars on the other hand, are designed to take much more damage. Their hardeners last longer, and can rep through light damage. They also have a much larger EHP than shield tanks, which means they can still duke it out with them and win every time. The madrugar's main weakness is that once its health is depleted, it is depleted. There is no super fast armor regen and their shield HP ceiling is way too long for it to matter. They will need to back out of the fight rather early, when compared to what they do now, to survive. They may inflict more damage during their engagements, but they will have to engage less often than shield tanks.
So for those of ya'll wondering how many kills tankers will be getting in 1.7, here is what you can expect of the infantry stomper tank builds:
Madrugars:
:) - Lots of kills during a long period of time and will be hard to push off
:( - Spends a lot of time in the red line recharging
Solution: kill it with bugbites and have an ambush or hunter-killer AV squad ready to chase down a weakened madrugar
Gunlogis:
:) - Not a lot of kills/engagement because its engagement periods are limited by its hardeners. If it stacks two hardeners, it'll be one of the most solid tanks you will ever encounter, so don't even try pushing it off; the pilot will just giggle and make you explode
:( - Once the hardeners turn off, you could kill it with just about anything. Smart shield tankers will show up, kill 5 guys in 5 seconds, and then bug out.
Solution: You want to catch them when they think they're safe BECAUSE they pulled out. Let them think that one route is safe, and then ambush them. Dumb shield tankers will just spontaneously combust, so don't worry about those ones.
Hope this settles everyone. Tanks will be OP and UP at the same time.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1447
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Posted - 2013.11.01 07:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Xender17 wrote:Your attempting to stop QQ by something that hasn't happened yet and we have yet to experience.
Aside-
The problem still remains.
You will most likely still die because tanks can be pretty easy to hunt. Just wait tell you seem them go back and they will be easy to take down.
There by losing a ton of isk while playing smart.
Well, I see tanks becoming much harder to use, but also becoming far more deadly if someone can figure it out. Just like the glass cannons of Chrome :)
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1447
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Posted - 2013.11.01 07:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:In a nutshell...
Madrugar: Get in the fight, stay in, kill the infantry.
Gunloggi: Bust through their front line, kill something big that was hurting your team and disappear before your shields get evaporated.
Pretty much. Just like it ought to be. It'll be better when we get MN tanks bc caldari don't make good brawlers, as they arent supposed to be
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1449
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Posted - 2013.11.01 07:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gunlogis will be tank destroyers and that is all. The CQC shield HAVs will be the MN tanks.
And gunlogis can still cqc but not against madrugars or for as long as madrugars. as a rail-lover, i dont mind the new changes.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
|
CharCharOdell
1449
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Posted - 2013.11.01 07:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Keri Starlight wrote:I won't say that Shield Tanks are going to be completely UP once again, you have a point here, but the upcoming changes are turning the Gunnlogi into something completely different, something I'm not used to and that doesn't really represent the reason why I started tanking.
I'm realizing that the Madrugar fits much better the role I want to have as a tanker and I have absolutely no problems about it, as long as a full vehicle respec is coming along the changes. I will simply switch to armor tanks.
In my opinion, the Gunnlogi is going to have way too low HP to be anything else than a mobile long-range engager or a 24 seconds God-mode tank (with 2 hardeners). In other words, they are going to be extremely expensive and devastating weapons, more than active and durable battle supporters.
Since I don't care about the first one, the only reason why I would call a Gunnlogi is to specifically destroy a Madrugar spamming missles on it.
Maps are way too wide and open for a tank to actually find a safe place for the cooldown every 24 seconds, so I think there will be no place for a CQC Gunnlogi. There won't be such a thing, unless the map is ideal, the situation is perfect and the pilot is much better than how I could ever be.
Exmaple, General Grodd, and Jason Pearson will be OP.
I'm just gonna go back to being the best railgun gunlogi guy since slap and hotch.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1450
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Posted - 2013.11.01 08:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:Considering the lol-worthy RPM of missile's I am rather curious on how viable a damage-modded missile gunnie will be for maddie hunting...
*shrugs*
Either way I'm not condoning nor condemning anything in patch 1.7 until I've spent a week minimum with it.
Well, actually, a gunlogi with an XT-201 and 2 complex damage mods with have a dps of 4728. and with the (1.3) multiplier vs armor, that is 6147 dps vs armor. basically, if a madrugar doesn't have hardeners on, it dies in one second.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
|
CharCharOdell
1457
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Posted - 2013.11.01 19:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Well, if you are done sucking CCP ****, may I say something. (joking, kinda lol)
1)
Sure on paper this all looks fine and dandy, but we still have yet to actually try the changes. Calling everything AWESOME is quite dangerous. A healthy amount of scepticism can go a long way.
2)
They didn't release this info just so you can go, Oh yeah this is perfect. You mentioned a few things in your posts that should be cause for concern and should be changed. IE, Missiles.
3)
So you are admitting that the gunnlogi has the short end of the stick when stacked against a maddie, currently. I get that maddies have trouble fitting damage mods, but it is foolish to assume that a gunnlogi has no problems whatsoever equipping damage mods as it is. Given I do not have to sacrifice a tank slot for a damage mod, I'm still limited by PG if I chose to do so. Which means I have far less tank in exchange for damage.
Now, one of my favorite logi fits is a high mitigation rail. No damage mods, just a focus on tank. Awesome for busting those glass cannons. Anyways enough of that.
4)
A forge gun already nearly 3 shots my glass cannon as is, so there is nothing new there buddy. Although it may take a few more shots then that, speed is the key to survival in that sort of situation.
So, what situations have you assumed for your theorycrafting?
Tank vs tank, Tank vs AV, AV vs Tank.
Terrain, speed, shield regen(armor is getting a buff in this regard).
All important factors, and more I can't think of atm.
Another thing to note, if these are standard hulls, assume proto hulls are in the future, it's not Tank vs Tank I'm concerned about. AV vs Tank is something that concerns me more. Proto Av on my Standard hull, seems to me a bit, hmm, unbalanced.
You also mention there will be MORE variety in fits with 1.7, so I'm going to assume that there is no variety as is for you? I have an insane variety of fits as is, so I will have to disagree with you there. The only thing we are GAINING in variety is shield regen. But on the other hand, I don't view ammo as a gain. It will be a restriction, as wanting more of it require you to sacrifice a slot.
Ok, now off to work I go, yay. (notice the lack of enthusiasm)
You sound upset. Maybe you should spec out of tanks BC you can't handle them.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1458
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Posted - 2013.11.01 20:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
MRBH1997 wrote:CharCharOdell wrote:Okay, I am the King of QQ and a tanker, so if anyone should be complaining, it is me, but I'm not AND I spent over 14 hours on excel theory crafting 10 gunlogi and 10 maddy fits.
The fits that will be available to you in 1.7, for maddies and gunlogis, are awesome. There will be more combinations because SHIELD BOOSTERS, SHIELD EXTENDERS, PG/CPU UPGRADES, and ARMOR PLATES are no longer necessary to make what most of us would call, at least on paper, a good tank.
The armor/shield imbalance is being restored because of the damage mod changes. Those of you who complain about this (likely Gunlogi pilots) probably never actually crunched the numbers because you will find that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Madrugar to fit a damage mod and be useful. This is because madrugars have very low CPU and damage mods take up an enormous amount of CPU and PG. Now, if you're piloting a gunlogi and you find the need to put damage mods on it, you're probably the kind of person who doesn't want to get too close to the action (probably between 300 and 600m out), so you don't need shield boosters or extenders. You MAY want a hardener if you have to duke it out with a madrugar on its last legs, but that's about it. With this 300% buff to damage mods, stacking a couple on a particle cannon, let alone a missile launcher, will destroy a madrugar without its hardeners on in seconds- SECONDS...but not a second like in Chrome, which is honestly a good thing IMO.
Also, armor tanks will not be able to rep through your insane DPS anymore, even without d-mods, so be happy. The only weakness a gunlogi has, is that if it is caught without its hardeners on, even at full health, a railgun or forge gun, at proto level, will take out its shield in 1 shot with a few damage mods, and 2 without. That means an un-hardened gunlogi dies in 3 shots of large railguns type weapons. (Yay for forge gunners!) I like this weakness.
Madrugars on the other hand, are designed to take much more damage. Their hardeners last longer, and can rep through light damage. They also have a much larger EHP than shield tanks, which means they can still duke it out with them and win every time. The madrugar's main weakness is that once its health is depleted, it is depleted. There is no super fast armor regen and their shield HP ceiling is way too long for it to matter. They will need to back out of the fight rather early, when compared to what they do now, to survive. They may inflict more damage during their engagements, but they will have to engage less often than shield tanks.
So for those of ya'll wondering how many kills tankers will be getting in 1.7, here is what you can expect of the infantry stomper tank builds:
Madrugars:
:) - Lots of kills during a long period of time and will be hard to push off
:( - Spends a lot of time in the red line recharging
Solution: kill it with bugbites and have an ambush or hunter-killer AV squad ready to chase down a weakened madrugar
Gunlogis:
:) - Not a lot of kills/engagement because its engagement periods are limited by its hardeners. If it stacks two hardeners, it'll be one of the most solid tanks you will ever encounter, so don't even try pushing it off; the pilot will just giggle and make you explode
:( - Once the hardeners turn off, you could kill it with just about anything. Smart shield tankers will show up, kill 5 guys in 5 seconds, and then bug out.
Solution: You want to catch them when they think they're safe BECAUSE they pulled out. Let them think that one route is safe, and then ambush them. Dumb shield tankers will just spontaneously combust, so don't worry about those ones.
Hope this settles everyone. Tanks will be OP and UP at the same time. If your number crunching is correct I'll be happy to be a tanker yet. Since you say you are a pretty damn good tanker maybe you could help me out with my ISK issue with keeping them stocked now.
Sure thing. There are only 2 solutions:
Run infantry more than you run tanks (To know how often, take the average cost of your favorite tank fitting and divide it by your average net income you get by running pubs. Then take the quotient and round up to the nearest integer. That integer is the number of battles you have to run as infantry before calling a tank in a battle. Once you lose that tank, repeat the process. It is the only sustainable way to run tanks without a corp feeding you ISK.
OR
Get into a corp that is very active in PC and ask for money
There is no tanker that can support themselves by only running tanks and only the money they make in pubs.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1459
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Posted - 2013.11.01 20:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
MRBH1997 wrote:Hmmm.... I run infantry 90% of the time now and yet I make very little ISK. And I'm not loosing a lot of suits or having a bad KDR/ WP count. It just seems like I make less money now and it's not corporation tax, I've done the math. I'll just have to talk it over with you sometime this weekend on dust.
Sure thing. You can find me in the Learning Coalition channel or 'Honey Badger'.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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