DUST Search - [Feedback/Request] Why I feel the scout suit is in a decent place as it is (and ...

Melchiah ARANeAE wrote:

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

Lowering the TTK, which is what you are advocating, does in fact benefit scouts as it trivializes hp, which is why scouts benefited in 1.4, but it negatively impacts heavies. Also med v med TTK is low enough is about where it should be, any lower and it would be too short in my opinion. The more trivial hp is, the more scouts benefit and heavies get hurt, the other way around (heaves up scouts down) when you make ehp important.

Scouts need

1) Passive Detection strong enough to see whats going on within 30 M, which we will soon be close to after the buff

2) Scouts need an oh **** mechanic similar to what vehicles have to get out of trouble, because there is zero margin of error for scouts.

3) Scouts need to bring something to the table in a fight (like debuffing) which can't be duplicated.

Suckage is tolerable so long as you are serving a unique function, so I'd say that number 3 is my most anticipated change.

I think you should actually read my post. I want to increase TTK for heavies and scouts, but leave it the same for mediums by decreasing all weapon damage and giving heavies either a bonus to shields and armour or a bonus to armour and shield modules so they can still tank effectively.

Whilst I can't deny the other three points would make a scout a bit more useful, they won't really help if scouts are still gunned down in 0.1 seconds.

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Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 187	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:34:00 - [1] - Quote Personally, I don't feel the scout suit is actually the problem. Sure, it's has to have some work done to it (CPU and PG problems, cloaking, slightly too slow etc.), but it's pretty balanced for how it should be IMO. For me, the problem is how much better medium suits get from STD to ADV to PRO and that the weapons are balanced for that increase. Take a standard scout, heavy, assault and logi. They're all fairly balanced. The TTK across the board there is where it should be. Howeve, Take a proto scout, heavy, assault and logi, and the picture is very different. The medium suits have gone from between 300 and 400 odd ehp at standard to 900+ at proto. The heavy from 900 at standard to 1300 ish at proto. Damage mods and proficiency skills help balance weapon damage for this increase in ehp (and this game is balanced for medium suits fighting medium suits). Now, the scout suit, a class designed to use scanning and biotics modules, goes from 210 to 260 hp (with level 5 armour and shield upgrades). I know scouts are designed to hide and use speed tanking to run from enemies, but speed tanking cannot work if the enemy's weapons are balanced to kill people with 4 times the amount of health you have. This means there is in incredibly small margin of error if a scout would try to rely solely on stealth because the moment the scout is spotted, game over. And this doesn't work. Scouts aren't just recon. They're assassins. They flank unaware enemies or out manoeuvre and confuse their foes. Scouts KILL. This is something a lot of people forget. So, how I would balance this is by nerfing shield extenders and armour plates so that a fully tanked proto medium would only have around 750 hp; nerf every weapons damage by 10-15%; and change the sentinel bonus to either a direct increase in shields and armour, or a increase in shield/armour module efficacy; decrease the price of proto weapons, dropsuits and equipment. With this: Medium on medium suit combat would hardly change at all, so it wouldn't feel like a nerf Scouts wouldn't be cut down in 0.1 seconds by a proto medium Heavies would be able to take more damage without being OP and they'll have a good bonus now as well Protostomping wouldn't be so unbearable as the difference in level wouldn't be as great Dying in a protosuit wouldn't leave such a large dent in your pocket Oh, and there should be officer suits and vehicles with amazing health and CPU/PG, but they're also ridiculously rare and, therefore, very expensive with many more skill requirements than just dropsuit command that they'll only be used in PC. Leaving PC the ultimate battleground. P.S. Sorry about going slightly off topic at the end. 'Insert witty signature here'
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 367	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:43:00 - [2] - Quote Lowering the TTK, which is what you are advocating, does in fact benefit scouts as it trivializes hp, which is why scouts benefited in 1.4, but it negatively impacts heavies. Also med v med TTK is low enough is about where it should be, any lower and it would be too short in my opinion. The more trivial hp is, the more scouts benefit and heavies get hurt, the other way around (heaves up scouts down) when you make ehp important. Scouts need 1) Passive Detection strong enough to see whats going on within 30 M, which we will soon be close to after the buff 2) Scouts need an oh **** mechanic similar to what vehicles have to get out of trouble, because there is zero margin of error for scouts. 3) Scouts need to bring something to the table in a fight (like debuffing) which can't be duplicated. Suckage is tolerable so long as you are serving a unique function, so I'd say that number 3 is my most anticipated change. Below 28 dB
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 187	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:58:00 - [3] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Lowering the TTK, which is what you are advocating, does in fact benefit scouts as it trivializes hp, which is why scouts benefited in 1.4, but it negatively impacts heavies. Also med v med TTK is low enough is about where it should be, any lower and it would be too short in my opinion. The more trivial hp is, the more scouts benefit and heavies get hurt, the other way around (heaves up scouts down) when you make ehp important. Scouts need 1) Passive Detection strong enough to see whats going on within 30 M, which we will soon be close to after the buff 2) Scouts need an oh **** mechanic similar to what vehicles have to get out of trouble, because there is zero margin of error for scouts. 3) Scouts need to bring something to the table in a fight (like debuffing) which can't be duplicated. Suckage is tolerable so long as you are serving a unique function, so I'd say that number 3 is my most anticipated change. I think you should actually read my post. I want to increase TTK for heavies and scouts, but leave it the same for mediums by decreasing all weapon damage and giving heavies either a bonus to shields and armour or a bonus to armour and shield modules so they can still tank effectively. Whilst I can't deny the other three points would make a scout a bit more useful, they won't really help if scouts are still gunned down in 0.1 seconds. 'Insert witty signature here'
Cosgar ParagonX 6827	Posted - 2013.10.30 05:10:00 - [4] - Quote Short TTK is a problem for everyone in this game, whether they want to admit it or not. There's a topic on it if you want to add in your 0.02 ISK. As far as EHP scaling, I agree with you. When they nerfed the scout's 1.0 speed, they should have given them a sufficient HP buff of some kind to add more margin of error. When a MLT AR can down you in 0.3 seconds, you're basically dead as soon as you're spotted. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 367	Posted - 2013.10.30 05:17:00 - [5] - Quote Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Lowering the TTK, which is what you are advocating, does in fact benefit scouts as it trivializes hp, which is why scouts benefited in 1.4, but it negatively impacts heavies. Also med v med TTK is low enough is about where it should be, any lower and it would be too short in my opinion. The more trivial hp is, the more scouts benefit and heavies get hurt, the other way around (heaves up scouts down) when you make ehp important. Scouts need 1) Passive Detection strong enough to see whats going on within 30 M, which we will soon be close to after the buff 2) Scouts need an oh **** mechanic similar to what vehicles have to get out of trouble, because there is zero margin of error for scouts. 3) Scouts need to bring something to the table in a fight (like debuffing) which can't be duplicated. Suckage is tolerable so long as you are serving a unique function, so I'd say that number 3 is my most anticipated change. I think you should actually read my post. I want to increase TTK for heavies and scouts, but leave it the same for mediums by decreasing all weapon damage and giving heavies either a bonus to shields and armour or a bonus to armour and shield modules so they can still tank effectively. Whilst I can't deny the other three points would make a scout a bit more useful, they won't really help if scouts are still gunned down in 0.1 seconds. You are changing TTK one form of another to balance this, if you decrease all weapon damage this then raises TTK, if you give the heavy more hp that raises heavy TTK, how does this raise the scouts survival if TTK for everyone goes up, the ratio of scout v medium is the same. Also low hp and the mentality of one bullet one death is a mechanism I can tolerate, I don't want scouts too populated anyways, it should be hard mode, but the issue is utility and escape mechanic, not ehp buffing, that is probably the most boring solution for scouts. Below 28 dB
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1848	Posted - 2013.10.30 13:04:00 - [6] - Quote Read your title, came ready to throw stones. Read your post, and it made alot of sense. +1 to OP and Oswald.
ELITE INQUISITOR Eternal Beings 1	Posted - 2013.10.30 13:58:00 - [7] - Quote I think that ccp should do modules for scouts and heavies. For scouts the module would reduce the size of their hit box. For the heavies it would reduce the small arm and grenade damage by a percentage. I could be wrong but it might fix some of the problems. If you accept your limitations you go beyond them
Outer Raven Capital Acquisitions LLC Public Disorder. 12	Posted - 2013.10.30 14:24:00 - [8] - Quote To OP it does seem as though you are just talking in a round about way for the TTK of suits, not to say your ideas aren't good though. In other threads its has been brought up that a 10% damage buff was added to certain weapons such as the AR when hit detection was working less than optimally. But after the latest tweak to hit detection they did not remove it, you can correct me on this if I am wrong just haven't heard any official word on it. In any event removing the buff may help with our current TTK issue across the board, before considering any new major nerf or buff cycle. Also as was stated earlier in the thread, scouts need other mechanisms to help their survival. I created a brief thread that brought up two such mechanics to add on scouts. Gû¦Gû+ Outer Raven /// Sniper /// Head Hunter Gû+Gû¦
Outer Raven Capital Acquisitions LLC Public Disorder. 12	Posted - 2013.10.30 14:33:00 - [9] - Quote ELITE INQUISITOR wrote: I think that ccp should do modules for scouts and heavies. For scouts the module would reduce the size of their hit box. For the heavies it would reduce the small arm and grenade damage by a percentage. I could be wrong but it might fix some of the problems. Thing is those should "already" be innate skills built into said suit if you go by there description. Gû¦Gû+ Outer Raven /// Sniper /// Head Hunter Gû+Gû¦
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 190	Posted - 2013.10.30 20:34:00 - [10] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: You are changing TTK one form of another to balance this, if you decrease all weapon damage this then raises TTK, if you give the heavy more hp that raises heavy TTK, how does this raise the scouts survival if TTK for everyone goes up, the ratio of scout v medium is the same. Also low hp and the mentality of one bullet one death is a mechanism I can tolerate, I don't want scouts too populated anyways, it should be hard mode, but the issue is utility and escape mechanic, not ehp buffing, that is probably the most boring solution for scouts. If a scouts TTK is higher, it'll give that much more leeway for speedtanking making it a lot more of a viable tactic than having to stack plates and extenders to survive an encounter (as scouts have to now). I do like a scouts low ehp and the thrill of knowing that I can be killed easily if I'm spotted, but a scouts current survivability is too low. I have zero chance of escaping if I try and run away from combat without stacking armour and shield mods. And doing that I might as well just run an assault suit. Oh, and heavies do need a longer TTK as well. They die too quickly as they are. 'Insert witty signature here'

Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kinsho Swords Caldari State 41	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:05:00 - [11] - Quote I can't see how SOME can forget that scouts can kill . They are some of the deadliest adversaries on this game , even with their HP's at the stage that they are and how are they a tad too slow ???? A scout ( meaning someone who has specialized in this role ) is SO fast it seems like it's unfair sometimes . But to me that's the nature of this game and what makes it stand out from the rest . " Doubts are like flies and should be crushed !!!!!! " I hope that I am THE FLY SWATTER of those in my presence .


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