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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
537
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Posted - 2013.10.29 04:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
HAVs. They are controversial vehicles, indeed. Why? Because they aren't exactly good with balance. Why? Because their roles were not properly defined, that's why. What's their role supposed to be? Apparently, big tanky metal monsters that chew people up on open ground. So, what should their role be? Something akin to Armor in real life, I should say (at least for standard HAVs). Armor in real life has quite a few roles (not all of which I'm able to list):
1. Breaking through enemy defenses. 2. Defending and supporting infantry. 3. Destroying other armored vehicles.
Of course, they can be used for other things, but this is basically what it amounts to. As such, HAVs should be designed for fulfilling these roles. They should be reasonably capable of fulfilling other roles, but they shouldn't be quite as good at it. To fulfill these roles, HAVs need:
1. Firepower, to neutralize fortified targets and positions. 2. Durability, both to shield infantry and to endure defensive fire. 3. Mobility, enough to keep up with infantry and move through defensive lines.
HAVs DO NOT need:
1. The ability to hit small or fast moving targets with their main guns. (They are for destroying fortifications, not infantry.) 2. The ability to easily repair all damage dealt to them. (That's what retreating is for. They are offensive, not defensive.)
All in all, my main qualm is that the role of HAVs is not being thought through properly. Either CCP is trying to give HAVs a role that it's not suited for, or CCP doesn't know what armor is supposed to be. Now, keep in mind, I'm only saying this for standard HAVs, not specialized HAVs. Other types, such as Marauders or Enforcers, don't necessarily have to fill the exact same role as normal HAVs.
I will add more posts here as I suggest possible means of "correcting" the role of HAVs. You are also welcome to do so. I'm looking forward to your feedback to my feedback.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
538
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Posted - 2013.10.29 04:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:You're the one who's mixing the roles. The HAV's we got now does what it's supposed to: decent DPS, decent speed, tank The tech 2 hulls will nerf one of these, buff another, and keep one the same:
Marauder- high tank, **** speed, decent DPS.
BO- High mobility, **** DPS, decent tank
Enforcer- High DPS, **** tank, decent mobility This isn't about DPS, speed or tank. This is about how it applies them.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
539
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Posted - 2013.10.29 05:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:You're the one who's mixing the roles. The HAV's we got now does what it's supposed to: decent DPS, decent speed, tank The tech 2 hulls will nerf one of these, buff another, and keep one the same:
Marauder- high tank, **** speed, decent DPS.
BO- High mobility, **** DPS, decent tank
Enforcer- High DPS, **** tank, decent mobility This isn't about DPS, speed or tank. This is about how it applies them. That statement could mean several different things. elaborate. Damage can be applied in different ways, right? I'm currently more concerned with how HAVs apply damage than how much damage they do. I don't want a HAV's main gun to be an assault rifle on steroids, I want it to be at least somewhat similar (not totally, but somewhat) to it's real-life equivalent. Not for physical realism, but for tactical realism. The assault rifle in Dust 514 is tactically similar to assault rifles in real life, as is the shotgun and sniper rifle (although to a slightly lesser degree). 80GJ Blasters are more tactically similar to machine guns than a tank's main gun, which results in HAVs being less tactically similar to modern armor than one would expect.
The same thing applies to mobility. Make a HAV too slow, and it no longer acts like armor (though making it too fast would make it overpowered, which is worse).
Tanking is complicated. It basically has two factors, yeah? Durability and endurance. Durability is how much damage it can take at once, and endurance is how long it can hold out. Offensive units need more durability to push through defensive lines, whereas defensive units need more endurance so they can't just be whittled away. Modern armor is an offensive weapon, and HAVs are the equivalent of modern armor. Thus, you would logically expect that HAVs would have more durability than endurance.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
539
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Posted - 2013.10.29 06:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:The problem is basically that CCP's trying to do pretty much everything, with everything. That's too large an issue to tackle in a single thread. I just wanted to focus on HAVs.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
540
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Posted - 2013.10.29 06:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Make large turrets "AV Turrets" and small turrets "AP turrets". These changes are keeping in mind the upcoming turret ammo.
What changes for large turrets:
-Missiles and railguns lose their splash -Missiles get more missiles per salvo, higher damage per missile -Railguns get longer initial spool time, higher direct damage -Blaster RoF is reduced to 120RPM (2RPS) -Blaster damage is increased accordingly (around 3-4x) to compensate -Blaster should overheat in the same amount of time as currently
Mostly these are changes to the blaster, obviously because currently as a large turret it's the most devastating against infantry. With the RoF nerf, infantry should essentially be able to run past a tank without being killed, BUT if they stand still or if the tanker is exceptionally accurate, they're goners because bullets will deal massive damage.
And without splash damage, railguns and missiles will lose much of their AP capabilities. Still possible, but difficult.
Now, as for AP (small turrets):
-Railguns need more splash, more direct/splash damage, slower overheat -Blasters need a tad more range, and slower overheat -Missiles should stay the same but perhaps lower the RoF to make the ammo feel like it lasts longer.
Essentially buffing railguns up so they actually have a chance against blasters and missiles in terms of AI.
With these changes, instead of small and large turret slots tankers will get two AP and 1 AV turret slot. Make it clear from the outset what the tank driver's role is, and that it is the job of his passengers/crew to support with anti-personnel small turrets. I can agree with the idea that Large Turrets should be primarily AV and Small Turrets should be primarily AP, but I still think that Small Turrets should be reasonably effective against Light Vehicles. So, would Medium Turrets be middle-ground?
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
540
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Posted - 2013.10.29 06:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Someone phrased this best, but the new roles of HAVs are what was described as 2 min / sporadic battering rams with how active modules are going to change. So HAV pilot main role is essentially going to function as stall breakers. Hmm... I want a capacitor system, damnit!
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
540
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Posted - 2013.10.29 06:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Garth Mandra wrote:I agree that HAVs don't seem to have a good role.
I'm not sure what that role should be though. As an infantryman I'm not keen on the invincible rolling death machine that a few of the tank players advocate for as it doesn't do anything that infantry can't already do (although it does it better while being a bigger target).
Dropships and LAVs have obvious transport roles. A APC type troop carrier would have obvious roles in transporting, spawning, healing, supplying, boosting infantry. Fighters would be anti-dropships vehicles (dropships would need more impact to make them worthwhile). Bombers would probably be large area denial and/or anti-ground vehicles.
But what about tanks? -"Breaking through enemy defences" sounds like destroying installations to me but installations don't play a large part in the games at the moment and blowing them up sounds like a terribly boring activity. -"Supporting infantry" tends to mean killing enemy infantry (or scaring them so they hide) which is a role I would prefer to give to heavies and heavy weapons. -"Destroying other vehicles" is a fine role but not terribly useful with the small imparct of LAVs of Dropships at the moment. Without other roles tanks killing tanks is a closed system.
Perhaps if turrets were serious threats to infantry? If turrets flipped with null canons (or some other area control panel) instead of individually then disabling them would help infantry take an area. If the turrets couldn't be permanently destroyed, just temporarily disabled, then that might give tanks more to do.
Just brainstorming. Breaking through enemy defenses doesn't always refer to installations. If you have a group of enemy infantry defending a bridge and you just can't seem to get through, send a HAV. Unless they have dedicated AV already there, it's going to cause quite a fuss. You can't just ignore it, nor can you shoot it down in the same way as infantry. Even if it doesn't destroy their defenses outright, it basically forces them to hide, scatter or focus on the HAV. Basically, you've broken their defenses without even needing to kill them.
Supporting infantry isn't just the killing of threats. HAVs provide counterfire and cover in a mobile package.
Destroying other armored vehicles, not just other vehicles. HAVs are currently the only armored vehicles in-game, but MAVs will also fall under this term when they are introduced.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
541
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Posted - 2013.10.29 07:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:NAME: % AV / % AP
Large Blaster: 80% / 20% Large Missile: 90% / 10% Large Railgun 90% / 10%
Small Blaster: 20% / 80% Small Missile: 25% / 75% Small Railgun: 40% / 60%
I see... Well, this is confusing. Roles aren't really defined by percentages, so this really doesn't tell me anything other than a very vague picture. I get the general idea, though.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
541
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Posted - 2013.10.29 07:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
I've just thought of something to alleviate the issues with Large Turrets being overly effective against infantry.
In World of Tanks (bear with me here), your aiming reticule widens and your gun's accuracy diminish when you either A. move the turret or B. move the tank. When you remain stationary, your aiming reticule refocuses and your gun's accuracy slowly returns to normal. There is no such system in Dust 514, which means how well you can fire at something is completely dependent on your level of skill. While rewarding skill is certainly a positive thing, I personally think it makes it too easy for tankers to hit infantry. I say this mechanic should be added. Large Turrets would be the most affected by it, and Medium Turrets would be somewhat affected by it, while Small Turrets wouldn't be affected by it at all. Also, modules and bonuses that increase tracking speed would reduce this phenomenon.
Any thoughts?
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
545
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Posted - 2013.10.29 08:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:I like it, BUT this could be negated by the 'future tech' argument. We've already seen how often balance is chosen over realism in Dust 514.
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Maybe projectile dispersion should increase based on whether or not you're taking damage. Taking more damage: bigger, unfocused reticle. Therefore the longer the tank withstands a pounding from AV, the more ineffective it gets in combat.
How the reticle is restored to maximum potential is something to be discussed too though. Should it be based on the current percentage of HP the tank has, or should accuracy keep diminishing until the tank returns to 100% armour? Explanation could be repair nanites focus on survivability/mobility first and offensive capability last.
And my bad with the percentages. To be honest all I wanted to show was whether the turret in question was better in AV or AP. I don't think it's a good idea for HAVs, since they are supposed to be able to shoot under intense fire. Though I did have an interesting thought. When a turret gets hit directly (instead of the chassis, for example), it could suffer a penalty in the form of a "damage meter" (for simplicity's sake, it won't have a separate health bar, just a damage meter). The higher the damage meter, the less heat capacity the turret has, and the less accurate it is. When it's 50% damaged, for example, it can only handle 50% as much heat, loses 'focus' (let's call the reticule/accuracy mechanic that, shall we?) 50% faster, and regains focus 50% slower. When it hits 100% damage, it auto-overheats and isn't able to be used until the damage meter goes back down. The damage meter automatically goes down over time, and using a repair tool (infantry equipment) will remove damage from it more quickly (armor repairers won't repair it, as that would give an advantage to armor tankers. I also think this makes infantry more valuable to tankers).
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
546
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Posted - 2013.10.29 20:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:You had me on the turrets until you talked about , " how the armor repairer shouldn't repair the turrets ." Then they should have a turret repairer ??? One more thing that you can't place on your tank due to the computer and programming capacity and also the slot limits . The turrets damaging effecting the performing overall makes since but they should be repairable and WITHOUT help from SQUAD MATES I'm not sure if you've seen this, but...
Ulysses Knapse wrote:The damage meter automatically goes down over time I said this already. Furthermore, it was in the middle of the post, which I know you read from start to finish.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
548
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Posted - 2013.10.30 07:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:You had me on the turrets until you talked about , " how the armor repairer shouldn't repair the turrets ." Then they should have a turret repairer ??? One more thing that you can't place on your tank due to the computer and programming capacity and also the slot limits . The turrets damaging effecting the performing overall makes since but they should be repairable and WITHOUT help from SQUAD MATES I'm not sure if you've seen this, but... Ulysses Knapse wrote:The damage meter automatically goes down over time I said this already. Furthermore, it was in the middle of the post, which I know you read from start to finish. I did but " over time " ??? How do you define that ???? Is it like if you had your shields knocked out and you don't have a charger mod or shield booster available so it's like , tic ... tock ... tic , aw come on already ???? The way you had the scenario going made it seem like if you didn't have support and you were to encounter another tank or swarms or even a few forge gunners and troops with av's ( just the luck you need and that can happen even now to someone who doesn't have the RIGHT mods ) then you will be dead in a heartbeat ???? It just seemed like there was no way that you had given to speed up this process without personal to support you . "Over time" is a very, very simple term. Unless specified, it almost always means gradually over time. Secondly, I didn't specify how long it would take because I'm not good with pulling statistics out of my arse. Thirdly, that's right, there's no way to repair it faster using vehicle modules (because that would be such an incredibly situational module that it wouldn't be worth it). Fourthly, why do you assume it will be easy to take a turret out of commission? They aren't made out of paper mache, you have to do quite a bit of direct damage to the turret or it won't be disabled at all. It would usually be a better idea to simply do whatever does the most damage to the HAV instead of disabling it's turret.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
615
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Posted - 2013.10.31 00:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:How would an turret repair mod be situational if this is something that you have suggested ???? ( i.e. turret damage ) Shouldn't a tank user have a way to repair something that effects his or her tank's performance ??? Shouldn't that become an option ...???... just like your proposal ??? A turret is a part of a tank and actually one of the MAIN parts of it because it produces offence and defense and without the turrets , what is it then ???? 1. Unless the enemy is intentionally targeting your turret, the amount of damage it will take is minimal. 2. Even if the turret is targeted, it likely won't be disabled, just weakened. 3. You're in more danger of having your HAV popped than you are of having your turret disabled. 4. It's better to have an extra slot for tanking than to waste a slot for "just in case".
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:They are made of paper mache as you have stated . Try using a SICA or a SOMA even with advance turrets and mods and see how far that will get you . THEY ARE HORRIABLE and are not worthy of being called tanks . But I guess that's why they are re-working the vehicles . When did I imply that I was talking about the vehicles themselves? I thought it would be understood by the context that I was referring to the turrets.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:I'm going to stop commenting on this topic because clearly you don't understand me. That's just your assumption. I understand what you are saying, but I'm trying to tell you that it's not that big of a problem. As I have already said, even if your turret is being targeted in an attempt to disable it, keeping your tank alive is a bigger priority than keeping your gun in peak condition because 1. turrets wouldn't be that easy to disable and 2. even if your turret is disabled, you don't auto-pop.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
817
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bump.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
846
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Posted - 2013.12.21 00:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jrakraa5 wrote:AV TANK: railgun. INFANTRY TANK: Blaster. seems simple to me. Uh, don't you understand why that concept is broken?
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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