DUST Search - Announcement:Weapon stats!

Maximus Stryker wrote:

Aero Yassavi wrote:

Ok guys, I'm not really big into balancing numbers but I love looking at mechanics and I think I may realized what's going to be the big difference when selecting your weapons.

When you're in that close combat range, which a lot of action around objectives is, the assault rifle would be a better choice functionally not only because of the high ROF but because if you realize you're going off target on your aim, you can stop your aim and readjust to conserve bullets in your magazine. For the rail rifle, every time you let your finger off the trigger you will have to do another 0.2 second charge up to begin firing again, so users will have to choose between using up the magazine or stopping fire and becoming vulnerable for awhile as they attempt to start shooting again. Combine this with the fact that the rail rifle magazine is about a third smaller than the assault rifle, and it seems that at least mechanically you would want to have an assault rifle up close over a rail rifle any day.

Now I'm still not sure if that makes up for the damage numbers, but again balancing statistics isn't really my thing.

On second thought, mechanically I believe my point is valid, but just how long is 0.2 seconds?
http://a.bestmetronome.com/
Turn the metronome to tempo 300, that is 0.2 seconds between each beat.

Spool up time probably needs to increase quite a bit.

I like the 200 tempo


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3250	Posted - 2013.10.25 16:04:00 - [1] - Quote Swarm launcher lock range has me worried. Fizzer94 wrote: Cosgar wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: It seems the DPS on the Rail Rifles is about the same at the DPS on Blaster Rifles. I was expecting it to be lower as a tradeoff for its range. Maybe the RRs will kick pretty hard? Or maybe they will have the worst hipfire? Probably a lower RoF since the breach was its placeholder. Which brings up a question- what's the scope zoom going to be like on it? I know it has a lower ROF, but it dishes out damage just as fast as the AR. About 450 DPS at standard. This worries me. Here's hoping it has some sort of downside to make up for its range. When it omes to close combat, splitting up you damage into many bits of damage is better. So two rifles both have 450 DPS, but one does one blast of 450 every second while the other does 450 blasts of 1 damage every second. The latter rifle will be better up close as you are doing the damage consistently and if you miss a few shots it's not that big deal, where as the first if you miss the shot you have to wait another second before you have another chance to deal damage, which can mean death in close combat. Also the rail rifle is going to have a 0.2 second charge up time before every shot, so that means every shot is effectively going to lag 0.2 seconds which sounds like a fair trade off to me. The rail rifle will be much better at range and suffer tremendously in close combat to the Gallente assault rifle.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3250	Posted - 2013.10.25 16:13:00 - [2] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Also the rail rifle is going to have a 0.2 second charge up time before every shot, so that means every shot is effectively going to lag 0.2 seconds which sounds like a fair trade off to me. The rail rifle will be much better at range and suffer tremendously in close combat to the Gallente assault rifle. That is incorrect Yup, I just read through the thread and realized that.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3250	Posted - 2013.10.25 16:15:00 - [3] - Quote Rabbit C515 wrote: Good Job! Then Where is the Laser Rifle? Also will CCP adjust the magnification of scope? since their range are increased. Laser rifle is not part of the same class of weapons. Just because it says "rifle" doesn't mean you should compare it with assault rifle, scrambler rifles, combat rifles, and rail rifles. I mean, by that case we should also be trying to compare sniper rifles in this group as well.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3251	Posted - 2013.10.25 16:38:00 - [4] - Quote Ok guys, I'm not really big into balancing numbers but I love looking at mechanics and I think I may realized what's going to be the big difference when selecting your weapons. When you're in that close combat range, which a lot of action around objectives is, the assault rifle would be a better choice functionally not only because of the high ROF but because if you realize you're going off target on your aim, you can stop your aim and readjust to conserve bullets in your magazine. For the rail rifle, every time you let your finger off the trigger you will have to do another 0.2 second charge up to begin firing again, so users will have to choose between using up the magazine or stopping fire and becoming vulnerable for awhile as they attempt to start shooting again. Combine this with the fact that the rail rifle magazine is about a third smaller than the assault rifle, and it seems that at least mechanically you would want to have an assault rifle up close over a rail rifle any day. Now I'm still not sure if that makes up for the damage numbers, but again balancing statistics isn't really my thing.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3251	Posted - 2013.10.25 16:45:00 - [5] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Ok guys, I'm not really big into balancing numbers but I love looking at mechanics and I think I may realized what's going to be the big difference when selecting your weapons. When you're in that close combat range, which a lot of action around objectives is, the assault rifle would be a better choice functionally not only because of the high ROF but because if you realize you're going off target on your aim, you can stop your aim and readjust to conserve bullets in your magazine. For the rail rifle, every time you let your finger off the trigger you will have to do another 0.2 second charge up to begin firing again, so users will have to choose between using up the magazine or stopping fire and becoming vulnerable for awhile as they attempt to start shooting again. Combine this with the fact that the rail rifle magazine is about a third smaller than the assault rifle, and it seems that at least mechanically you would want to have an assault rifle up close over a rail rifle any day. Now I'm still not sure if that makes up for the damage numbers, but again balancing statistics isn't really my thing. On second thought, mechanically I believe my point is valid, but just how long is 0.2 seconds? http://a.bestmetronome.com/ Turn the metronome to tempo 300, that is 0.2 seconds between each beat. Spool up time probably needs to increase quite a bit.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3254	Posted - 2013.10.25 17:01:00 - [6] - Quote Ok I did some maths Rail rifle charge up time is 0.2 seconds. Assault rifle ROF is 750 shots per minute. That means the AR will get 2.5 shots off in the time it takes the rail to charge. This is a discrete problem (you can't fire half a bullet), so 2. Each bullet of the AR is roughly 35 damage (haven't looked at AR stats in forever). So that is a 70 damage head start for the AR. Now, if we assume that at one point in this fight the rail rifle is going to stop firing to readjust its aim, that's another 70 damage, so the AR is given a 140 damage edge already (assuming he makes the shots during this time). Sounds to me like the AR will still be idea for close combat, but I could be wrong.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3255	Posted - 2013.10.25 17:10:00 - [7] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Ok guys, I'm not really big into balancing numbers but I love looking at mechanics and I think I may realized what's going to be the big difference when selecting your weapons. When you're in that close combat range, which a lot of action around objectives is, the assault rifle would be a better choice functionally not only because of the high ROF but because if you realize you're going off target on your aim, you can stop your aim and readjust to conserve bullets in your magazine. For the rail rifle, every time you let your finger off the trigger you will have to do another 0.2 second charge up to begin firing again, so users will have to choose between using up the magazine or stopping fire and becoming vulnerable for awhile as they attempt to start shooting again. Combine this with the fact that the rail rifle magazine is about a third smaller than the assault rifle, and it seems that at least mechanically you would want to have an assault rifle up close over a rail rifle any day. Now I'm still not sure if that makes up for the damage numbers, but again balancing statistics isn't really my thing. On second thought, mechanically I believe my point is valid, but just how long is 0.2 seconds? http://a.bestmetronome.com/ Turn the metronome to tempo 300, that is 0.2 seconds between each beat. Spool up time probably needs to increase quite a bit. I like the 200 tempo That would equate to 0.3 second charge up time. That would equate to 3.75 bullets of an AR in that charge up time, but since again the problem is discrete (you can't fire 3/4ths of a bullet), 3 bullets. If an AR bullet does 35 damage, that's 105 damage head start. If the rail rifle stops firing once during the fire fight, that is a 210 damage edge, assuming the AR user lands his shots in this time.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3257	Posted - 2013.10.25 17:35:00 - [8] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Theresa Rohk wrote: a .02 charge up time is pretty significant, as is the seizure mechanic on the scrambler, so I expect the gun is pretty well balanced around that to offset its better stats. Have faith, and wait until you see the gun in action before saying its unbalanced. .02 charge up time is not even remotely significant. Look at the post immediately above yours: Aero Yassavi wrote: On second thought, mechanically I believe my point is valid, but just how long is 0.2 seconds? http://a.bestmetronome.com/ Turn the metronome to tempo 300, that is 0.2 seconds between each beat. Spool up time probably needs to increase quite a bit. 0.2 seconds guys, not .02 seconds. There is a major difference. Tempo 300 does represent 0.2 seconds between beats though. Also, though it may not seem like much while listening, that is even time for an AR to fire two shots (with time to spare). On a GEK with no mods or proficiency, that means 71.4 damage for a head start. On a duvolle with not mods or proficiency, that means 74.8 damage for a head start. Now if you have to stop firing at any time during the engagement, which usually happens, that's another 71.4 damage or 74.8 damage, respectively. Then factor in that the rail rifle's clip size is one third that of the assault rifle.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3259	Posted - 2013.10.25 18:11:00 - [9] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: 0.2 seconds guys, not .02 seconds. There is a major difference. Tempo 300 does represent 0.2 seconds between beats though. Also, though it may not seem like much while listening, that is even time for an AR to fire two shots (with time to spare). My bad, you're correct about the timing. The issue with the gun, however, is not that the AR comes out slightly ahead in a straight up fight. It's that it matches the AR pretty close in a straight up fight, and has 75% longer optimal range. That kind of range should come with a significant DPS reduction. The SMG still kills with it's tiny range, having the rail rifle's DPS brought down to SMG levels does not seem like an extreme reduction at all. As it stands, it has potentially higher DPS than the AR while totally spanking it in the range department. The game doesn't need new ARs on steroids. I don't think it'll match the AR close at all in close combat, and I already gave my math and mechanic reasoning behind that.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3259	Posted - 2013.10.25 18:14:00 - [10] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: No, the 0.2 charge Time will nerf it in close engagements. No, it won't nerf it. See? I supported my argument as well as you did. ... Now let me try to be more civil. I honestly hope you're correct, but I doubt it. The clip size is not small enough to counteract just holding the trigger and ignoring the 0.2 penalty. And you assume two people meet each other and start firing at the same time, while the vast majority of firefights start asymmetrically. A smart player with a Rail Rifle is simply more cautious about what battles he fights. If he can negate the 0.2 penalty by firing first, he wins. You also assume that during engagements you never let go of the trigger. From what I remember back when I didn't have a scrambler rifle, and what I see from streams and youtube videos, engagements with the AR usually always result in a seize fire at least once before the kill is made, so that's another moment the rail rifle has to charge up for 0.2 seconds.

Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3260	Posted - 2013.10.25 19:01:00 - [11] - Quote crazy space 1 wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: crazy space 1 wrote: why aren't you getting rid of the burst AR and TAR? doesn't the rail and combat rifle make them obsolete? Also weren't they place holders? Plus now gallente get 4 guns, then ammar gets 2, minmatar gets 2, caldari get 2. Blasters: Full-auto/Burst/Long range/Breach Rail guns: Full-auto/Long range Projectiles: Full-auto/Burst Lasers: Full-auto/Charge So you remove burst and Long range variants of the current weapon, and now every rave gets a automatic weapon, and a weapon based on their racial technology. Also this would open up the breach for a serious buff. Cut the guns range in half, give it a huge damage increase and RoF nerf. It's a blaster, now that we have 4 racial types of the weapon you can balance them more effectively. ! Not everyone is going to train up the other races rifles up. likes crazy space :11 CPM: 0 Crazyspace for CPM! Though CCP specifically did say that the other weapons were NOT placeholders, but would be tweaked (which is happening, see OP). Instead of removing two variants of the AR, they are going to add more variants to the other rifles in the future. So what is still to come: Breach Scrambler Rifle Burst Scrambler Rifle Breach Combat Rifle Tactical Combat Rifle Burst Rail Rifle Tactical Rail Rifle I reckon they're only giving each of the new rifles it's assault variant right now because assault is pretty easy, "Make it go pew pew pew faster." Though for the other variants, they may be exploring more interesting and unique mechanics.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3261	Posted - 2013.10.25 19:10:00 - [12] - Quote crazy space 1 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The base assault rifle is a "assault", fires in fast automatic fire. Also gets a breach variant. Also gets a burst variant. Also gets a tactical variant. So assault rifle is missing NOTHING, and gets EVERYTHING. We wouldn't want to train anything but the gallente assault rifle , obviously. Again, it's likely the other three rifles only have the "assault" as their variant because assault is easy to do, "make things go pewpewpew faster." Now the other variants also have some general characteristics, Tactical - single, powerful shots Burst - volley of shots Breach - slow, powerful shots But there's also plenty of room for interesting and unique mechanics. For instance, the base scrambler rifle is the tactical, but instead of just firing single, powerful shots it also has a charge function and heat build up. So for the Tactical Combat Rifle and Tactical Rail rifle, would you rather it simply fire one shot at a time like the tactical AR or would you rather give them more time to think up some other mechanics that still fall within that general frame but are more unique?
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3264	Posted - 2013.10.25 19:30:00 - [13] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Raz Warsaw wrote: the rail rifle doesn't overheat That's true, but then again even if you fire as fast as you can you won't overheat before getting at least 17 shots out and that should be enough to kill most people, especially at range. If you can't do that you should probably not use the SR. The heat build-up is a thing you learn to manage quite fast in my experience. And also the SR gets the ability to charge up shots, with which you can kill people in seconds. You can kill people in seconds with any weapon. The charge shot allows you to kill people before before they know what hit them. Of course, if you miss that charge shot you are really in a hole for the next few moments.