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Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 279	Posted - 2013.10.21 17:02:00 - [1] - Quote First off, the Oculus Rift is amazing. It had me fan-girling so hard. But it has the same problem as the 3DS; it is impossible to show how effective it is without having the person try it. I can only imagine the marketing concerns. But this was a pointless side, so I shouldn't have done it. Anyway, I am a primary tanker. I like Tanks, I have been one since about the first 6 weeks of playing the game, and it is the role that I have the most fun playing. The Devs set up 16 accounts with max skills and created setups that included all prototype items. The accounts originally didn't have any cash but over the course of the say each account had a couple million. I sat down and made my Madruggar and went about playing a couple games. Here is the thing: the accounts only had 'ground pounder' set ups and no Anti-Vehile aside from the Start AV. The Tank was unkillable. 3 AV guys with Militia Swarms had no chance. I could pretty much sit there and just nom-nom all day. The 4th made it a little bit more difficult; I had to start playing competently without going full ham mode. This was pretty much what it was for a few games; I got to have some fun with my Tank against Militia Fits. Of course, the enemy did wise up. One Heavy with the IAFG was able to kill me despite having 2 Active Hardeners online and my Repairer (max skills meant that I could fit Best in Slot Plates and Repairers) in pretty much 6 seconds. I couldn't escape fast enough to hide and recall the Tank; the one Forge Gunner blew me to Hell. This is the problem with Tanks, and it has been since Beta. In Beta, you saw all these posts about Tanks being overpowered because they weren't hard to kill; they were impossible to kill. At the time, no one had proper skills in Anti-Vehicle Weaponry to be able to deal with Tanks. Militia and Standard Anti-Vehicle Weapons don't come close to being able to hurt a Tank. It is silly. Because of this, Tanks were hit in the PG department which basically meant that it was impossible (without max skills as I discovered) to put in an 180mm Plate and Heavy Repairer without a decently sized Powergrid Extender. In this character's case, it meant the BiS Armor Plate and the "uses less PG, heals less Health" Repairer with a 12% PG adder. That was a big hit to the survivability of Tanks. That was a big hit but what was even more dangerous was that everyone had maxed out their primary role and started to work on a secondary. This means IAFG became common. Prototype AV weapons murder Tanks. Bad. With the PG nerf, IAFG's turn Tanks into Swiss cheese. If that nerf hadn't of happened, I could see it not being as bad. But that is the problem; Militia and Standard AV weapons, unless they are in huge bulk, have little or no chance of killing a Tanker that is worth his salt while an IAFG will kill a Tanker before they have a chance of really reacting. Tanks have a huge base and terrible scaling while AV weapons have a medium base and great scaling. Equation example: Tanks = 6 + .2X AV: = 2 + 1X X = Skill Point Level. So the starting newbies had no chance against the Tank (like it was in Beta) while the IAFG spanked me like a red headed stepchild. This is a huge problem in balance. It is unfair to the newbies that are flat out unable to do anything to me and it is unfair to me that "I buy more skill points and more money into my Role but yours kills me so easily" type of thing. I don't see how being reworked, even if the numbers are not what is going to go live, will change any of that. Saberwing: remember the big fat guy that was all "fix tanks!" This is what I was talking about Be well.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7089	Posted - 2013.10.21 17:11:00 - [2] - Quote I thought nothing could make me hate this game more than being a dropship pilot. Then I tried tanks. You don't understand how upset I am right now.
Virtual Riot The Vanguardians 54	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:11:00 - [3] - Quote Just recently got my first level into ADS (Python) I must say that it is so much fun to be a ADS pilot But my running tactic is once I start taking any sort of real damage, put on the afterburner and repper and gtfo for my life All it takes is one guy running AV to render the entire map danger zone for my ADS Shouldn't be like that imo
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 279	Posted - 2013.10.22 00:44:00 - [4] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I thought nothing could make me hate this game more than being a dropship pilot. Then I tried tanks. You don't understand how upset I am right now. All vehicles are sort of out paced by AV but I always felt that Dropships were far, far worse off. You really feel as if you are better off in a Dropship than a Tank? Can't say I agree with that one.
Mac Dac Wraith Shadow Guards 244	Posted - 2013.10.22 01:23:00 - [5] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I thought nothing could make me hate this game more than being a dropship pilot. Then I tried tanks. You don't understand how upset I am right now. All vehicles are sort of out paced by AV but I always felt that Dropships were far, far worse off. You really feel as if you are better off in a Dropship than a Tank? Can't say I agree with that one. oh yeah dropships can at least feel safe at the flight ceiling but tanks... well you know the rest
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 644	Posted - 2013.10.22 01:49:00 - [6] - Quote Right now one guy can sit on a hill and effectively dismiss a whole component of this game. Keep it off the field. That may be ok if it was not for the fact that too many ppl are using it. Almost every match there's the one guy that whips out the swarms or forge and denies what you specced into to enjoy the game. If ppl know that they can so easily destroy tanks they will spec it. That is what has happened. Like the MD, Flaylock and murder taxi, if it is very effective it gets overused. No organization, no real skill other than to troll with that weapon. I thought this was a squad based cooperative play game? Hmm? Are the ppl that say that the same ones justifying a one man anti-tank arsenal? Blasters are the only thing that make infantry run for cover. Missiles have **** poor splash damage or accurate aim dealing with infantry. Same with rails depending on distance. If you don't need anybody else to solo kill my tank then I shouldn't have to rely on anybody else to keep my tank alive. I play both sides, AV And tank. This isn't about QQ. It is about good balance for an enjoyable combat game experience.
Soldiersaint Deepspace Digital 475	Posted - 2013.10.22 01:51:00 - [7] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Just recently got my first level into ADS (Python) I must say that it is so much fun to be a ADS pilot But my running tactic is once I start taking any sort of real damage, put on the afterburner and repper and gtfo for my life All it takes is one guy running AV to render the entire map danger zone for my ADS Shouldn't be like that imo Actually this is the way it should be. an ads pilots needs infantry support to take out the av troops. letting you fly around freely? Well lets see what my demon swarm has to say about that
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2989	Posted - 2013.10.22 02:22:00 - [8] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I thought nothing could make me hate this game more than being a dropship pilot. Then I tried tanks. You don't understand how upset I am right now. Unless someone is using a proto breach forge that one shots all dropships (lame), I'm usually able to absorb the first forge and turn on modules + after burner and get away, so being a dropship pilot really isn't too bad in this case (of course, once they get multiple forge gunners it's game over). The real frustration with dropships comes from all the times you get rammed by an RDV or another dropship and all the times someone with a mass driver or flaylock is someone able to push your entire ship into a wall. I swear 90% of my dropships have been lost due to these stupid reasons and not actual AV.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2989	Posted - 2013.10.22 02:28:00 - [9] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Just recently got my first level into ADS (Python) I must say that it is so much fun to be a ADS pilot But my running tactic is once I start taking any sort of real damage, put on the afterburner and repper and gtfo for my life All it takes is one guy running AV to render the entire map danger zone for my ADS Shouldn't be like that imo I run my Incubus with two of the 15% passive armor resistors, 1 efficient light repper, 1 60mm pc armor plate, an F-45 crisis control, and afterburner. Like you said, anytime you start taking any little bit of damage just turn on the modules and GTFO. Also try to swivel a bit to give forgers hard shots. Overall I think it's much better than the Python. Really though I laugh at swarm launchers, even guys with wiyrkomis are a joke since you need to do is turn on your actives, follow his swarm trail, point your nose at him then boom, +50. It's the forge gunners who give me problems and only really because their forge shots have knock back on the dropship so I can't line up my shot. Also there's a few maps that I never call in my Incubus because the redline rail turrets over see all. For instance, Spine Crescent is a big no no for dropships, you can be in your own redline under your MCC and the enemy rail turret in their redline can still hit you.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3482	Posted - 2013.10.22 02:28:00 - [10] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I thought nothing could make me hate this game more than being a dropship pilot. Then I tried tanks. You don't understand how upset I am right now. Unless someone is using a proto breach forge that one shots all dropships (lame), I'm usually able to absorb the first forge and turn on modules + after burner and get away, so being a dropship pilot really isn't too bad in this case (of course, once they get multiple forge gunners it's game over). The real frustration with dropships comes from all the times you get rammed by an RDV or another dropship and all the times someone with a mass driver or flaylock is someone able to push your entire ship into a wall. I swear 90% of my dropships have been lost due to these stupid reasons and not actual AV. Dust Fiend now knows my pain. Tanking makes me angry.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 283	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:19:00 - [11] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: Right now one guy can sit on a hill and effectively dismiss a whole component of this game. Keep it off the field. I just played my first match in a while (other than in Vegas) and I see what you mean. My Tank was on the field about 20 seconds before I started getting hit from AV that was doing some hefty damage. I parked it and managed to recall it. Was kinda surprised to see how fast I started to take damage. Be well.
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 229	Posted - 2013.10.22 18:48:00 - [12] - Quote This is possibly the most rational post I've seen on AV/Tank balance. Ever. Question: Does the tank's gradation factor in advanced and prototype hulls? If so, I would say the grading of AV and of vehicles both need some serious number crunching. If not, this seems as good an argument as any to pull out higher-grade AV in the next release and balance the standard vehicle hulls against standard AV. Trying to balance all the various tiers of AV against standard hulls might yield long-term results that nobody will like. Or else we could keep both standard and advanced AV, so long as there's a concept of how an advanced AV weapon should perform against a standard hull with higher-level shield and armor mods.
KenKaniff69 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 741	Posted - 2013.10.22 18:57:00 - [13] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: This is possibly the most rational post I've seen on AV/Tank balance. Ever. Question: Does the tank's gradation factor in advanced and prototype hulls? If so, I would say the grading of AV and of vehicles both need some serious number crunching. If not, this seems as good an argument as any to pull out higher-grade AV in the next release and balance the standard vehicle hulls against standard AV. Trying to balance all the various tiers of AV against standard hulls might yield long-term results that nobody will like. Or else we could keep both standard and advanced AV, so long as there's a concept of how an advanced AV weapon should perform against a standard hull with higher-level shield and armor mods. That's basically what we have been saying about past builds like chrome where tanks were fully skilled, yet no one had the AV of today. In chrome it required teamwork and coordination from a squad to kill a tank. Now it takes one guy with proto AV to take out any tank. If the same guy were to show up in chrome with a proto swarm launcher the tanks would have still went pop, but it would not have been nearly as quick. From watching some old corp battles, a chrome tank was easily destroyed by a IA FG. Hence they didn't need nerfed.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 286	Posted - 2013.10.22 18:57:00 - [14] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: This is possibly the most rational post I've seen on AV/Tank balance. Ever. Question: Does the tank's gradation factor in advanced and prototype hulls? If so, I would say the grading of AV and of vehicles both need some serious number crunching. Previously, the Surya and Sagaris only got one additional High or Low. It was the one that would not help their defensive capability. Generally, the Armor Tank would put in some kind of utility active module while the Shield Tank was able to put in a Diagnostic unit to get more PG and Shield. If Prototype Tanks are based on the same design as before, nothing is going to change. A few months ago, it was really popular to say "Obviously Proto AV is killing your Tanks so easily; you are Standard Tanks. It will be better when the Prototype Tanks are released." The problem with that statement is, as I said above, the previous Prototype Tanks didn't make you any tougher.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1231	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:04:00 - [15] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I thought nothing could make me hate this game more than being a dropship pilot. Then I tried tanks. You don't understand how upset I am right now. Unless someone is using a proto breach forge that one shots all dropships (lame), I'm usually able to absorb the first forge and turn on modules + after burner and get away, so being a dropship pilot really isn't too bad in this case (of course, once they get multiple forge gunners it's game over). The real frustration with dropships comes from all the times you get rammed by an RDV or another dropship and all the times someone with a mass driver or flaylock is somehow able to push your entire ship into a wall. I swear 90% of my dropships have been lost due to these stupid reasons and not actual AV. RDV pilots love to get me right as the match is ending for some reason...
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 146	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:09:00 - [16] - Quote And for some reason, CCP response to the issues, is to completely start over from scratch with vehicles. I just don't get it!
Jakar Umbra Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 304	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:17:00 - [17] - Quote If I remember correctly, one of the deciding factors of the PG nerf was the CCp's o wn fault with the CreoDron Breach HAV which had PG in excess of the Madrugar's with a Soma's slot layout. The result was people with maxed out PG skill had insane amounts of PG and could fit a tank with absolutely ridiculous amounts of health. So instead of just changing the PG on the HAV as they should have they used it as one of the reasons to nerf the PG skill. Note the CreoDron Breach HAV was only obtainable through buying the armored pack. It was pay to win situation.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7141	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:20:00 - [18] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I thought nothing could make me hate this game more than being a dropship pilot. Then I tried tanks. You don't understand how upset I am right now. Unless someone is using a proto breach forge that one shots all dropships (lame), I'm usually able to absorb the first forge and turn on modules + after burner and get away, so being a dropship pilot really isn't too bad in this case (of course, once they get multiple forge gunners it's game over). The real frustration with dropships comes from all the times you get rammed by an RDV or another dropship and all the times someone with a mass driver or flaylock is someone able to push your entire ship into a wall. I swear 90% of my dropships have been lost due to these stupid reasons and not actual AV. Dust Fiend now knows my pain. Tanking makes me angry. I lost 4 tanks this morning at around 800k a piece. 3 to getting jumped by 3-4 advanced to proto swarms at the same time, one last one to frustration from the prior deaths leading to me engaging a tank at the wrong time. I just need to quit this game till the respec. Also on the topic of dropships, I fly a prometheus. Go put an afterburner on that and tell me how fast you move
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 286	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:21:00 - [19] - Quote Jakar Umbra wrote: If I remember correctly, one of the deciding factors of the PG nerf was the CCp's o wn fault with the CreoDron Breach HAV which had PG in excess of the Madrugar's with a Soma's slot layout. The result was people with maxed out PG skill had insane amounts of PG and could fit a tank with absolutely ridiculous amounts of health. So instead of just changing the PG on the HAV as they should have they used it as one of the reasons to nerf the PG skill. Note the CreoDron Breach HAV was only obtainable through buying the armored pack. It was pay to win situation. I don't quite agree with that. The PG Nerf didn't happen to the CreoDron for at least a week or two after the total nerf. It was a small nerf but it was mostly the removal of the 5% PG per level that hurt. I remember reading a Dev post along the lines of "Oops, we forgot to also lower the CreoDron's PG."
Cosgar ParagonX 6340	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:25:00 - [20] - Quote Jakar Umbra wrote: If I remember correctly, one of the deciding factors of the PG nerf was the CCp's o wn fault with the CreoDron Breach HAV which had PG in excess of the Madrugar's with a Soma's slot layout. The result was people with maxed out PG skill had insane amounts of PG and could fit a tank with absolutely ridiculous amounts of health. So instead of just changing the PG on the HAV as they should have they used it as one of the reasons to nerf the PG skill. Note the CreoDron Breach HAV was only obtainable through buying the armored pack. It was pay to win situation. Except that if you find CCP Blam!'s post on the PG nerf, it was about giving newer players a chance.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7143	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:30:00 - [21] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Jakar Umbra wrote: If I remember correctly, one of the deciding factors of the PG nerf was the CCp's o wn fault with the CreoDron Breach HAV which had PG in excess of the Madrugar's with a Soma's slot layout. The result was people with maxed out PG skill had insane amounts of PG and could fit a tank with absolutely ridiculous amounts of health. So instead of just changing the PG on the HAV as they should have they used it as one of the reasons to nerf the PG skill. Note the CreoDron Breach HAV was only obtainable through buying the armored pack. It was pay to win situation. Except that if you find CCP Blam!'s post on the PG nerf, it was about giving newer players a chance. By making the skill completely useless. Sounds like Blam
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 236	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:41:00 - [22] - Quote Perhaps the balance lies in the cost more than the AV that kills them. Reduce the cost of vehicles by 50%. People won't get as much isk for killing them, and it won't "hurt" so much when they are lost. Its still laughably easy to kill a tank character that hasnt put any SP into them. I think cost is the most relevant factor of all. It shouldn't cost 2mil to fit a tank that can die to two seconds. Isk is nothing to infantry, but its the life blood of a vehicle user and its not even possible to play tank mode unless you get supplemental income from a buddy or your corp. LLAVs are pretty difficult to take down though, especially someone that has Logi level 4/5 skilled and high resists.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 287	Posted - 2013.10.22 21:47:00 - [23] - Quote LLAV's are probably the hardest to kill vehicles considering their great speed and strong resistances.
jerrmy12 kahoalii REAPERS REPUBLIC 74	Posted - 2013.10.22 22:35:00 - [24] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: First off, the Oculus Rift is amazing. It had me fan-girling so hard. But it has the same problem as the 3DS; it is impossible to show how effective it is without having the person try it. I can only imagine the marketing concerns. But this was a pointless side, so I shouldn't have done it. Anyway, I am a primary tanker. I like Tanks, I have been one since about the first 6 weeks of playing the game, and it is the role that I have the most fun playing. The Devs set up 16 accounts with max skills and created setups that included all prototype items. The accounts originally didn't have any cash but over the course of the say each account had a couple million. I sat down and made my Madruggar and went about playing a couple games. Here is the thing: the accounts only had 'ground pounder' set ups and no Anti-Vehile aside from the Start AV. The Tank was unkillable. 3 did the tank have 1.7 changes? passive rep 40% DR etc. etc.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 287	Posted - 2013.10.22 22:55:00 - [25] - Quote No, it was live. In fact, my dad damn near gave one of the Devs running the DUST games a heart attack. Allow me to paint a story: I walk over to see no one sitting down at the DUST station other than him. "You are just playing a Skirmish on your own?" "No. They locked out normal instant battles... but not Factional Warfare." Dad didn't really do much in the game other than look around and giggle but the look on the Dev as he heard "No, this is FW" alone was worth the drive out there. Anyhoo, if I remember my set-up correctly, it was 6.7k-ish Armor and dual Hardeners. So 25 + (25 * .8691) = 46.7275% resistance plus maxed skill that gives Resistance (however that stacks). So it is actually a higher resistance that 40% DR and had the added benefit of having a Repairer that healed a lot more in bursts. Be well.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2013.10.23 14:21:00 - [26] - Quote Does anyone know why exactly the change is happening? I don't see how this change is anything other than "Tanks are going to get weaker."

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