DUST Search - Announcement:Statement on BPO Removal

Maken Tosch wrote:

Borne Velvalor wrote:

Math. If you pay just 10 million ISK (EVE Collector's Edition codes go for 50 million ISK PER BPO after division, so I'm being generous) for a standard weapon BPO and the weapon usually costs 1k, you need to die 10,000 times in that suit to make up the cost. Yes, ten THOUSAND times.

Did you just read what you posted? Everything about this statement is as wrong as saying "the singularity is about to explode". I have to DIE 10,000 times to make up the money lost in paying for the BPO? Who the **** gets paid for dying? No one. You don't earn ISK for dying... ever. You earn ISK for making the other bastard die and finishing a match. Therefore you logic is flawed.

I usually earn about 140,000 ISK per match in my scout suit. Using that as a baseline and assuming I fitted the same weapon BPO as you referenced, I will only need to complete 71 matches minimum. Assuming that each match is about 20 minutes long, that will be about 23 hours. If you play only 3 hours a day, that's about almost 8 days. I will make up what I lost in about a week. In New Eden economics, that's about right.

If I die 10,000 times and I earn nothing from each death then I still haven't earned any ISK to even get started on making up what I lost.

Quote:

If you're a good player, you are LESS likely to make money off a BPO, since you die less. If you don't die, your equipment costs are irrelevant. I die 4-5 times an Ambush in standard gear. That's 5k ISK an Ambush I'd be saving per weapon/module BPO, per match. If I paid 50 million for a BPO and a match takes 5 minutes, I'd make up the cost of the BPO after 830 hours of Ambush in that suit. Add in waiting times and squading up and you're at least at 1000 hours. This is being generous.

Again, dying gives you no ISK. Your point is invalid.

Quote:

You can make a profit in the early tens of millions of ISK, but many items will be priced way above that due to collectors and human stupidity. However, I agree that the players should be free to control pricing. It's just that capped BPOs > no BPOs.

At least you got this part right.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Borne Velvalor Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 797	Posted - 2013.10.24 06:54:00 - [1] - Quote Non-vehicle BPOs are terrible investments. Any amount of ISK in the tens of millions payed for a BPO will never be paid back by said BPO. If CCP is so worried about collectors paying ludicrous prices for BPOs and allowing the sellers to essentially trade real money for BPOs for ISK, place a cap on the price. At the end of the day, someone can just convert money into aurum and then aurum items into ISK if they are that desperate. With $100 you can get 225,000 AUR and buy 4500-5000 proto AUR guns. These can sell for 100k each due to the lower skill requirements. There you go, half a billion ISK. That's 5 million ISK a dollar. If it affects industry, make the BPOs cost resources every fitting, with the only benefit being the nice skin. Just because you have a blueprint doesn't mean you magically don't need materials to make the item. It's not like I can zap cake into existence without flour just because I'm holding a recipe.
Borne Velvalor Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 802	Posted - 2013.10.25 00:57:00 - [2] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Non-vehicle BPOs are terrible investments. Any amount of ISK in the tens of millions payed for a BPO will never be paid back by said BPO. If CCP is so worried about collectors paying ludicrous prices for BPOs and allowing the sellers to essentially trade real money for BPOs for ISK, place a cap on the price. At the end of the day, someone can just convert money into aurum and then aurum items into ISK if they are that desperate. With $100 you can get 225,000 AUR and buy 4500-5000 proto AUR guns. These can sell for 100k each due to the lower skill requirements. There you go, half a billion ISK. That's 5 million ISK a dollar. If it affects industry, make the BPOs cost resources every fitting, with the only benefit being the nice skin. Just because you have a blueprint doesn't mean you magically don't need materials to make the item. It's not like I can zap cake into existence without flour just because I'm holding a recipe. What the hell did you base your research on? BPOs can pay back ISK in savings regardless if they're non-vehicle BPOs as long as you're a good player who knows what he's doing. Also, ** no to suggesting about putting a cap on the selling price in ISK. If I want to sell a bpo for 620 million ISK (the price of plex at the moment) to a player, then I should have that option. ** price caps. Let the players have full control of their prices. Math. If you pay just 10 million ISK (EVE Collector's Edition codes go for 50 million ISK PER BPO after division, so I'm being generous) for a standard weapon BPO and the weapon usually costs 1k, you need to die 10,000 times in that suit to make up the cost. Yes, ten THOUSAND times. If you're a good player, you are LESS likely to make money off a BPO, since you die less. If you don't die, your equipment costs are irrelevant. I die 4-5 times an Ambush in standard gear. That's 5k ISK an Ambush I'd be saving per weapon/module BPO, per match. If I paid 50 million for a BPO and a match takes 5 minutes, I'd make up the cost of the BPO after 830 hours of Ambush in that suit. Add in waiting times and squading up and you're at least at 1000 hours. This is being generous. You can make a profit in the early tens of millions of ISK, but many items will be priced way above that due to collectors and human stupidity. However, I agree that the players should be free to control pricing. It's just that capped BPOs > no BPOs.
Borne Velvalor Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 802	Posted - 2013.10.25 13:21:00 - [3] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Math. If you pay just 10 million ISK (EVE Collector's Edition codes go for 50 million ISK PER BPO after division, so I'm being generous) for a standard weapon BPO and the weapon usually costs 1k, you need to die 10,000 times in that suit to make up the cost. Yes, ten THOUSAND times. Did you just read what you posted? Everything about this statement is as wrong as saying "the singularity is about to explode". I have to DIE 10,000 times to make up the money lost in paying for the BPO? Who the ** gets paid for dying? No one. You don't earn ISK for dying... ever. You earn ISK for making the other bastard die and finishing a match. Therefore you logic is flawed. I usually earn about 140,000 ISK per match in my scout suit. Using that as a baseline and assuming I fitted the same weapon BPO as you referenced, I will only need to complete 71 matches minimum. Assuming that each match is about 20 minutes long, that will be about 23 hours. If you play only 3 hours a day, that's about almost 8 days. I will make up what I lost in about a week. In New Eden economics, that's about right. If I die 10,000 times and I earn nothing from each death then I still haven't earned any ISK to even get started on making up what I lost. Quote: If you're a good player, you are LESS likely to make money off a BPO, since you die less. If you don't die, your equipment costs are irrelevant. I die 4-5 times an Ambush in standard gear. That's 5k ISK an Ambush I'd be saving per weapon/module BPO, per match. If I paid 50 million for a BPO and a match takes 5 minutes, I'd make up the cost of the BPO after 830 hours of Ambush in that suit. Add in waiting times and squading up and you're at least at 1000 hours. This is being generous. Again, dying gives you no ISK. Your point is invalid. Quote:** You can make a profit in the early tens of millions of ISK, but many items will be priced way above that due to collectors and human stupidity. However, I agree that the players should be free to control pricing. It's just that capped BPOs > no BPOs. At least you got this part right. You do not lose the money invested in your suit if you do not die. If you died twice in that match with a standard item costing 1k ISK, you would've still made 138k ISK profit. If you used a BPO, you make the full profit. I knew you would not understand this when I wrote this, because no one understands how investments work. Yes, you can pay it off. This does not mean you saved more money from the BPO than you paid. No, you do not "make" money when you die. You normally lose money when you die. The only point of a BPO is to mitigate losses. I'm done here. You would've always made 140k. The only difference in using a BPO is that you don't lose the small amount of money for your fittings, and only the money that you have BPOs for. This is the last math I will post. With a BPO: Starting cash: 100 million ISK Cash after Standard Weapon BPO: 90 million ISK Cash after 71 Ambush matches at 140k: 99.5 million ISK Without a BPO: Starting cash: 100 million ISK Cash after 71 Ambush matches at 135k (140k - 5 Standard Weapons w/o BPO): 109.5 million ISK Did you make up the cost of the BPO in the first example? Yes. You "paid it off." However, you would've made the same profits without the BPO without the price of the BPO. The ONLY difference between running a BPO Scout and a STD Scout is that you do not need to pay for your fitting. If you don't die, you never "save" any money in the same way someone can run a Thale 1000 matches in a row if they don't get counter sniped. Of course, we all die sometimes. That doesn't change the fact that you only lose the money you invested when you die and thus you've only saved money if you would've died in a standard suit and used a free BPO instead. If you do not understand, then you do not understand how investments work like 75% of players. This is why some moron will pay 100 million ISK for a BPO of a gun worth 1k when he could've bought 10,000 copies of that item for a tenth of the price and never ran out.
Borne Velvalor Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 802	Posted - 2013.10.25 13:37:00 - [4] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Math. If you pay just 10 million ISK (EVE Collector's Edition codes go for 50 million ISK PER BPO after division, so I'm being generous) for a standard weapon BPO and the weapon usually costs 1k, you need to die 10,000 times in that suit to make up the cost. Yes, ten THOUSAND times. Quote: I knew you would not understand this when I wrote this, because no one understands how investments work. I don't understand? You were talking about making up for the cost of the BPOs in ISK. What is there to not understand? Dude, seriously, you're not making any sense here. I already understood completely what you said earlier about making up for the cost and then you turn around and accuse me of not understanding? This conversation is starting to get stupid. It may have been the wording on my part. I'll reword it. My point was that you have not broken even or made a profit on a BPO, even if you've paid it off. You've only made a profit when enough losses have been mitigated to pay for ITSELF. You cannot pay for the item and say it is making a profit. For instance, if I buy a game for $100 and then make $100 in my job therefore paying it off, can I loan the game out to some guy for $5 and say I made a $5 profit? No, I just cut my losses down to $95. I would've made that money in my job regardless. Any external revenue (the money made in an Ambush) is irrelevant. All that matters is the money you made in direct result of using the BPO. The only money you "make" (compared to using STD gear) is the money you save. What I meant by making money is that if you ran STD gear and made 135k profit, you could've ran BPOs and made the full 140k, thus "making" 5k ISK extra. This extra is all that matters. If you die a lot, the amount you pay for STD gear every match is higher. Thus, using a BPO will save you more money on fittings because you won't have to pay for that gear. Thus, you're saving money from it faster and it can pay its own value off sooner. I thought you did not understand when you said you could pay off the BPO in 71 Ambushes because this is fundamentally a flawed view of investments. You don't make a profit off something as soon as you've paid for it. You make a profit off of something once its paid for ITSELF, either through actual profit of mitigating losses. I'm sorry if you already understood this.
Borne Velvalor Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 802	Posted - 2013.10.25 14:14:00 - [5] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Anyways, my point is that you can easily earn back the ISK that you lost with the BPOs in a short time. Once that BPO is paid off, you start getting profit via savings as you mentioned from that point on. Also, once the secondary market opens up, I'll be sure to buy BPOs low and sell them high like a typical Eve marketeer. In fact, I'm an Eve marketeer myself. I'm already on my way towards being able to set up to 260 buy/sell orders at once with reduced broker fees and cheaper NPC taxes. With a few careful moves and some heavy muscling of the lesser players in the regional market I'm very close to recuperating the ISK I lost in getting the skill books as well as the commodities. In response to the first paragraph: I was about to respond to your other post, but this is what I meant. This is flawed logic. This is why you thought my other post was "invalid" and that I had not read what I wrote. You do not make a profit once you pay it off by external means, because it has not payed for itself. If I buy a house and pay it off, then rent it out for $x a month, I have not turned a profit until the rent money has exceeded the cost of the house, even though I've paid off the house. Why? Because I could've NOT bought the house until that point and had more money in my wallet. The money it saves you is not worth the cost. Why pay 50 million ISK for a BPO when you can buy 10,000 copies of the item for 10 million ISK and pocket the remaining 40 million ISK right away? You simply do not save enough money. I lose about 30 suits a day and I don't play every day. It would take me a full year to pay off even a 10 million ISK BPO, because I simply do not die enough. It doesn't matter how much money I can make normally, because I can make that without BPOs. The BPOs are not responsible for the money I make, only the lack of gear expenses. Most of the players I know don't even have 10k deaths TOTAL. For their whole career. Even if they wore a BPO for a weapon for every death, the BPO wouldn't have turned a profit because the mitigated losses have not exceeded the initial cost. In response to the second paragraph: Of course, currently, BPOs cost real life money, making them instantly profitable in terms of ISK because they don't cost any ISK to obtain. In a market, players could sell a BPO for full price after they are done with it and get all their losses back, making BPOs free for everyone except the last guy in the chain that refuses to sell it, meaning everyone satisfied with STD gear could make a lot of money. If someone buys the BPO and doesn't sell it, they don't make a profit, though, because it can't feasibly pay for itself in gear savings.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 802	Posted - 2013.10.25 22:55:00 - [6] - Quote OZAROW wrote: Dragonfly scout Mtl sg bpo Toxin smg bpo Cardiac bpo Arm rep bpo Shield bpo Remotes an m1 grenades Total cost 2700 isk Average isk per match 200 000 Deaths under ten but let's do the math at 10 Ten deaths of 2700 = 27000 200000 match payout -27 000 equals 173,000 profit or more per match. That's roughly 289 matches or less to make 50 million isk. 5 million isk a day at 200000 a day is 25 matches a day. 5 million isk divided by a profit of 173000 isk per patch after ten deaths equals 28. 9 matches a day At that rate in one month of grinding like a zombie at five million a day that's 150,000,000 a month if your disciplined. So selling bpos for 50 000 isk is cheap in my opinion. I'm with MAKEN on this, people should charge what they want in market cuz once you have bpo making money won't be a problem an they will fund all the proto you like It doesn't matter how long it takes you to buy it with normal funds. The money you save by not buying a BPO in the first place funds more proto suits than the gear cost savings of not buying a BPO. Let's say you die 5 times a match and make 200k ISK a match to get that. This means you would've spent 75 million ISK on equipment in the same time period, that you've saved by using BPOs. Congratulations, only 225 million ISK to go to cover your costs. Compare these. You start with 500 million ISK. You buy 300 million ISK worth of BPOs; a full suit. You now have 200 million ISK. You make 300 million ISK over a certain time period (2 months); you now have 500 million ISK again. You start with 500 million ISK. You don't buy 300 million ISK worth of BPOs and lose 10k ISK a death. You only make 225 million ISK after equipment costs over the same period of time (2 months); you now have 725 million ISK. I am astounded by how many people do not understand this. You would be paying hundreds of thousands of ISK for several BPOs to save tens of thousands of ISK in equipment. Why does everyone attribute their WHOLE INCOME to BPOs, when they only make up a TINY fraction of it? Here, I'll sell you a 50 million dollar item that will make you make 10% more ISK per battle and Dust players can tell me how they can pay that off in a month. If you paid 50 million ISK for an item like that, you wouldn't need to make 50 million ISK to make a profit. You'd need to make 550 million ISK to make a profit, because without the booster, you would've made 500 million ISK anyways.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 802	Posted - 2013.10.25 23:48:00 - [7] - Quote So that everyone can understand where the flaw in their logic lies, this is how you calculate your return on investment. You've made a profit as soon as this number hits 1.0, because it's the percentage of your investment that you've made back in decimal form, so 1.0 is 100%. return on investment = gain from investment / cost of investment Thus the gain has to be greater than the cost. How is the gain FROM the investment on a BPO defined? Your whole income from Ambush? No, the gain is how much money you've saved by using a BPO instead of the STD gear you'd normally use. Aside from selling it to someone else, this is the only way you make more money by running BPOs over STD gear. These are your gains. gear cost of STD version deaths* For example, if you've died 10 times in STD gear and lose 10k ISK, you would've saved (read: "gained", relative to the other option) 10k ISK by using a BPO. Thus we can see that our return is: return on investment = (gear cost of STD version deaths) / cost of BPO* When deaths * cost of STD version is equal to the cost of the investment, you've saved the cost of investment in gear costs and your return becomes 1; you start turning a profit right after this point. We are interested on how many times you would've needed to die so that the savings from using BPOs over STD gear equal the cost. deaths (needed to make profit) = cost of BPO / gear cost of STD version I know, I know; you think my math is flawed. Let's let WolframAlpha do the algebra for me, since you can't argue with the computer. 1.0 (you start turning a profit at this point) = (Gear cost of STD version Deaths) / Cost of BPO* I told it to find how to obtain what d (deaths) is at the point where you start to make a profit. It tells us that: deaths = cost of BPO / gear cost of STD version Let's say that the cost of the BPO is 50 million ISK and the STD version of the weapon costs 1000 ISK. deaths = 50,000,000 / 1,000 The result is 50,000 deaths. Once you've died 50,000 times, you've saved 50 million ISK by using the BPO because without it you would've had to pay that much for the gear lost from dieing. So, if you pay 50 million ISK for a BPO of an item worth 1 thousand ISK, you better make sure that you were going to lose 50,000 copies of the item/die 50,000 times using it, otherwise it would've been FAR cheaper to just buy the item you needed as you needed it. You can also calculate return on investment as: return on investment = (gain from investment - cost of investment) / cost of investment In which case this tells you the percentage (in decimal form, obviously) of your cost of investment you've made back in profit, unlike the above which tells you how much of your investment you've made back period. When the ROI in this case is anything above 0.0, you've made a profit (ex. 2.0 means you've tripled your investment, making 200% profit). Anything below zero and that's how much you've lost (ex. -2.0 means you've lost double your investment, making 200% losses). This was too complicated for our needs, although the results are identical if you want to muddle through it. So, does anyone else want to claim they can save money over using STD items by being a good player/not dieing while in a BPO (you only save money if you would've had to pay money, and you would've had to pay more money if you died more), or that it makes a profit (profit = gains beyond costs, so it needs to have paid for its own costs with its own gains) once you've paid it off with an external revenue source? If you do, feel free to tell investors that their stocks are profitable the moment they "pay them off" using the money from their day job and see them laugh their asses off, because the selling price would then no longer matter. Anything it sells for it profit, right?
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 802	Posted - 2013.10.26 03:31:00 - [8] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @Borne Dude, seriously just let it go already. As other people said, this thread has side tracked enough. Back to the topic at hand. A lot of us here, especially after the recent public vote, seem to want the ability to freely trade the BPOs without restrictions. Sorry about that. I get a little bit enthusiastic about this kind of stuff; no malice intended. Yes, I agree that BPO trading would ideally be free.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 802	Posted - 2013.10.26 06:12:00 - [9] - Quote Evicer wrote: Im thinking its a good thing right now that SCEA sends me an email when I add money to my PSN wallet then lets me know the content I bought..... I got this other one from CCP that tells me about there Merc pack with a Permanent Dropsuit and Weapon. In CCP's defense is doesn't say anything about gifting/selling there digital content in the future to third parties though. The Argument about opening the player market and that BPO"S affect this is ridiculous .I know there are plenty of you that have Officer weps that you dont intend to use.Those are the items which youll be able to sell.As A person that bought Many merc packs I understood that I was buying duplicates but they gave us boosters and AUR and consumables. Which I have plenty of those left as well .This stupid crap Im reading about how many matches It akes to earn this much ISK is for lack of a better phrase absolute Fk8ing stupidity.Bpo's and the ISk they could potentially generate is pennies to what EVE players can make.SO this whole unbalancing the market argument is absolutely assuniying when a EVE player makes WAY more money than your Dust character. If we are talking about Full integration of the market than we are also talking about Transfering funds.289 matches? How long is that in game time?How much money could an EVE player generate in that same amount of time?You think there is too much money in DUST? That a Dust merc having a hundred million ISk In a pvp setting is a game/market breaker? LOL thats funny,thats absolutely hilarious that really is.... I can buy a PLEX in EVE and get 580 million in a couple clicks......that cost me 20 USD I have yet to make a character with one Dragonfly merc pack that has a massed that amount of ISK, and my bet is that no one has and it has never happened. Just because you can use a calculator, doesn't mean you're smart. I did a lot of math, but my point was that BPOs aren't such enormous ISK farms like people say, especially when you start paying ISK for them, since that cuts into your savings. Exactly what your last few lines say; you haven't amassed some huge fortune from using BPOs. Even if you buy BPOs currently with real money, you might be making 25-30% more ISK per match than other players. This is, apparently, game breaking, when it's fine to have people walking around that payed for 100% more SP. It's a non-issue, even if players transfer BPOs around without losses due to resale. STD gear is already pretty cheap. Anyone that wants to make real ISK will want to play PC, at which point BPOs aren't going to cut it. I honestly couldn't care less if someone kills me with BPOs and used that to fund a couple extra Proto suits a dozen matches later. There are way bigger problems.