DUST Search - More buffing less nerfing

KING CHECKMATE wrote:

IMO,(rated from 1-10):

HMG - 7

Assault HMG - 6 - 10m of range for 25% less DPS in return? Yeah. Even after damage drop off I'm pretty sure that the normal one will be doing about the same damage at 40m. I can't remember whether or not the bullet spread is better or not, but if it isn't, it's not that great. Even with all bullets hitting (LOL), it's dealing less damage than a Militia Assault Rifle at all ranges.

AR- 10

TAC - 7

Burst AR - 6

Breach AR - 4 - The Breach is worse in every way. It's got 25-30% lower DPS and a MUCH lower optimal range.

Plasma Cannon- 5 - Too long between shots, disputed whether or not it was supposed to be good AV, which it is not.

Mass Driver- 7

Assault Mass D - 8

Breach Mass D - 3 - Says is does more damage within a shorter blast radius. This is a blatant lie. Fires shots 25% slower? Check. Deals 25% less splash damage? Check. Has a 25% decrease to blast radius? Check. Oh, but it does 40% more damage on contact, which makes it the most bizarre knife ever created. The lowered splash damage and radius prevents you from killing yourself while you shoot it up the opponent's arse from 2m away.

Shotgun- 6 - What? I can't hear you over my SMG and your bullets flying through me dealing 0 damage.

Breach Shotgun - 7

SCR Rifle - 8

SCR Assault Rifle - 8

SCR Pistol- 9

Assault SCR Pistol - 10

Burst SCR Pistol - 8

Breach SCR Pistol - 9

Flaylock pistol - 6

Breach Flaylock - 3 - Good luck hitting anything moving. Enjoy 30% less ammo, 20% less splash radius and 40% less splash damage. Oh, but that 25% increase to impact damage makes it another nice knife.

Forge Gun- 7

Breach FG - 5 - Gastun's Forge gun says high (DPS).

Assault FG - 9

Swarm Launcher- 8

Sniper Rifle- 8

TAC Sniper rifle - 7

SMG - 8

Breach SMG - 7 - Same as every other Breach weapon. Lower DPS. Does it have slightly better hipfire? Does it matter?

Assault SMG - 10

Nova knifes - 5 - Every once in a while, a troll stabs me in the back. Said troll could've done this with his fists after that many damage mods, or any other sidearm with no damage mods.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 754	Posted - 2013.10.19 09:06:00 - [1] - Quote I agree. Many weapons need some form of buff within their niche. Some things need "rebalancing." Very few things need straight up nerfing, IMO.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 755	Posted - 2013.10.19 09:33:00 - [2] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Or change their role to what the damn description says or maybe go along with the lore, yea you know what gun I'm talking about. If I actually read the descriptions and remembered them, I'd know what you were talking about.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 758	Posted - 2013.10.19 09:50:00 - [3] - Quote Obviously Completely Unbiased Analysis wrote: HMG - Big SMG AR - Long Range SMG Burst AR - Longer Range SMG Tactical AR - Ninja Scrambler Rifle Plasma Cannon - Biggest Shotgun Mass Driver - Big Shotgun Shotgun - Big Novaknife SCR Rifle - Samus's Power Beam SCR Assault Rifle - Real Assault Rifle SCR Pistol - Headshot Machine Forge Gun - Hadouken Laser Rifle - Kamehameha Swarm Launcher - Miniature HAV Orbital Strike Sniper Rifle - Extreme Range Precision Novaknife Launcher MK.2 SMG - Short Range Assault Rifle Flaylock Pistol - Pocket Missile Turret Novaknives - Sashimi Knife Locus Grenade - Locust Grenade Sleek Locus Grenade - Scout Killer AV Grenade - Pilot's Ire Flux Grenade - Mass Driver's Best Friend I fixed this for you. Whether or not these suit the descriptions is subjective.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 773	Posted - 2013.10.19 21:01:00 - [4] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: One nerf is the same as many buffs, therefore OP is secretly advocating nerfing. A nerf affects how one gun interacts with there other guns. Buffing the other guns has the potential to change their niche and strengths compared to the other gun as well as their relationships with one another. The only real way to nerf the AR is lower its DPS, range (which is just another way to situationally lower DPS) or accuracy. This makes it a weapon that is very hard to balance through buffing and nerfing, plus everything naturally becomes centered around it due to their unique mechanics. For instance, to make the Laser more useful against ARs, you could nerf AR range or drop off. However, you could buff the same stats for the Laser, transform its optimal span or change the heat/damage mechanics. It depends on what you think needs work. It is possible to have most other guns being underpowered in some way without having the central gun being overpowered. Really, it's not the raw damage that needs rebalancing. Most guns have good DPS for their roles. It's just that some have stats that doesn't mesh well enough with their role or are not distinct enough. For instance: The Laser Rifle has a tiny optimal span of 19m, making it a very situational weapon. If this were expanded by 5m or so on the upper edge with a slightly longer drop off, it could suit its role better. This wouldn't affect most building complexs since it's hard enough to get a sight line long enough to hit the minimum range, let alone the maximum, but would end up with less scenarios where the enemy runs 3m away and you're doing no damage from optimal when you're looking out on relatively open ground. The Novaknives do too little damage, unless you go full Noveknives. If you let someone get close enough to knife you, you should die quickly, whether the user has stacked several Melee damage modifiers or not. The Heavy Machine Gun has too much dispersion at range, making it extremely easy to gun down Heavies at anything other than CQC. This makes them less of a suppression unit than a "I'm standing in your way, throw grenades at me or AR me to the head" kind of unit. The Tactical Assault Rifle completely outranges the Scrambler Rifle and by 40% to boot. Scrambler Rifles are supposed to be longer range than Assault Rifles, so giving AR users a similar weapon that outranges it by so much doesn't make sense, IMO. Scramblers are supposed to be longer range, yet their range is only better than normal Assault Rifles and every variant other than Breach out-ranges them. I'd love if the Charge shot got a big range boost. That way, you could rapid fire at closer ranges or fire slower, stronger shots at longer ranges for a well balanced playstyle. Damage might need to be rebalanced. Shotguns have a lot of hit detection issues. This isn't really something you can balance away, but still makes the gun worse than they should be. Also, IMO, they should have slightly longer ranges. It's currently 4-5m, which makes them extremely situational. Maybe 9m would be better? Right now, I kill most shotgun users that don't get me from behind (any weapon can do that) with my SMG a little too easily. I've killed a lot of PRO scouts with PRO shotguns with my SMG at 10m. Breach weapons have 25% lower DPS than regular variants. PRO Breach variants deal a lot less damage than STD regular weapons. Even if they make hipfire pinpoint accurate, the DPS will never match up, especially at range where you can just ADS. Plasma Cannons can be good in skilled hands, but their fire rate is a little bit TOO low to be practical most of the time. They need to cut the wait time between shots by 25%. This is just things from the top of my mind, but, as you can see, I would like other guns to become a little more versatile rather than taking the most versatile weapon type in the game and nerfing it into the ground.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 773	Posted - 2013.10.19 21:04:00 - [5] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I've always wondered about the intelligence of people who make this claim. Since everything is relative, nerfing or buffing have the exact same effect with relative gameplay. It is easier to make less changes than more So if one weapon is much weaker and useless compared to the many, buff that weapon, if one weapon is godly compared to all the others, nerf that weapon its not a difficult concept to understand You should read the post above. Even if only two weapons existed in the game, nerfing and buffing would not be equal. Nerfing raises average TTKs while buffing lowers average TTKs when everything is made to be on an equal level, for example. Plus, the weapons need to be rebalanced against each other as well. You can't just say "my gun lost to an AR, nerf the AR," because then you're trying to remove the symptoms without tackling the disease. It's like giving morphine to a guy with a headache when he needs a cup of coffee.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 775	Posted - 2013.10.19 21:54:00 - [6] - Quote Banning Hammer wrote: Cosgar wrote: If one game mechanic is OP compared to the rest, it's easier to nerf that one thing. No, it's easier to bring every other weapon to the same level. The weapon that is working the most effectively is the benchmark for every weapon, not the other way around. Exactly, thank you. You should take the mechanically simplest, most effective and overall most used/enjoyable weapon by the populous and center any changes around that. When 70% of your users run Gun A because it is effective and nice to use and 30% of your users are split between Guns B, C and D, complaining they aren't dealing damage fast enough to compete, you don't nerf Gun A. 1. If Guns B, C and D feel like turds to use, making Gun A a turd will not help. They are equally crappy, for sure, but that's about it. Now you just have to flush the whole thing. Why not just nerf everything one at a time until the guns all take 10 seconds to kill within a 1m optimal range, while you're at it? Sounds like a good idea to me! Also, people complain about guns being OP more than UP, even when the answer is that their gun is UP. It's human nature to blame the other guy for using his gun than to blame yourself and your gun. 2. The mechanically simplest gun is the hardest, no, impossible, to balance around all of the other guns with niches and different mechanics because there is less you can balance to get the desired effect.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 777	Posted - 2013.10.19 22:18:00 - [7] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: IMO,(rated from 1-10): HMG - 7 Assault HMG - 6 - 10m of range for 25% less DPS in return? Yeah. Even after damage drop off I'm pretty sure that the normal one will be doing about the same damage at 40m. I can't remember whether or not the bullet spread is better or not, but if it isn't, it's not that great. Even with all bullets hitting (LOL), it's dealing less damage than a Militia Assault Rifle at all ranges. AR- 10 TAC - 7 Burst AR - 6 Breach AR - 4 - The Breach is worse in every way. It's got 25-30% lower DPS and a MUCH lower optimal range. Plasma Cannon- 5 - Too long between shots, disputed whether or not it was supposed to be good AV, which it is not. Mass Driver- 7 Assault Mass D - 8 Breach Mass D - 3 - Says is does more damage within a shorter blast radius. This is a blatant lie. Fires shots 25% slower? Check. Deals 25% less splash damage? Check. Has a 25% decrease to blast radius? Check. Oh, but it does 40% more damage on contact, which makes it the most bizarre knife ever created. The lowered splash damage and radius prevents you from killing yourself while you shoot it up the opponent's arse from 2m away. Shotgun- 6 - What? I can't hear you over my SMG and your bullets flying through me dealing 0 damage. Breach Shotgun - 7 SCR Rifle - 8 SCR Assault Rifle - 8 SCR Pistol- 9 Assault SCR Pistol - 10 Burst SCR Pistol - 8 Breach SCR Pistol - 9 Flaylock pistol - 6 Breach Flaylock - 3 - Good luck hitting anything moving. Enjoy 30% less ammo, 20% less splash radius and 40% less splash damage. Oh, but that 25% increase to impact damage makes it another nice knife. Forge Gun- 7 Breach FG - 5 - Gastun's Forge gun says high (DPS). Assault FG - 9 Swarm Launcher- 8 Sniper Rifle- 8 TAC Sniper rifle - 7 SMG - 8 Breach SMG - 7 - Same as every other Breach weapon. Lower DPS. Does it have slightly better hipfire? Does it matter? Assault SMG - 10 Nova knifes - 5 - Every once in a while, a troll stabs me in the back. Said troll could've done this with his fists after that many damage mods, or any other sidearm with no damage mods. This is actually pretty fair. I've filled out some reasons why I agree for some of the weapon's ratings.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 780	Posted - 2013.10.19 22:48:00 - [8] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I've always wondered about the intelligence of people who make this claim. Since everything is relative, nerfing or buffing have the exact same effect with relative gameplay. It is easier to make less changes than more So if one weapon is much weaker and useless compared to the many, buff that weapon, if one weapon is godly compared to all the others, nerf that weapon its not a difficult concept to understand You should read the post above. Even if only two weapons existed in the game, nerfing and buffing would not be equal. Nerfing raises average TTKs while buffing lowers average TTKs when everything is made to be on an equal level, for example. Plus, the weapons need to be rebalanced against each other as well. You can't just say "my gun lost to an AR, nerf the AR," because then you're trying to remove the symptoms without tackling the disease. It's like giving morphine to a guy with a headache when he needs a cup of coffee. That makes two who I question their rational thinking abilities, 1) Nerfing and or buffing outliers that deviate from the average to bring it up/down into the average keeps TTK stable, buffing or nerfing everything else to the outlier radically changes TTK 2) "You can't just say "my gun lost to an AR, nerf the AR," where the hell did this red herring come from? We are talking about statistical averages and stability when it comes to the idea of balance. 1) When you have a choice between nerfing and buffing "outliers," both will stablize the TTK, but one will end up with a higher TTK and one will end up with a lower TTK. This was mostly irrelvant, but the simplest example of change. 2) You think that making a weapon that feels good to use and does its role well much worse at its role is better than making weapons that are cumbersome to use easier and mre effective to use. Also, please tell me what changes you can make to balance the AR. Oh, wait, you can only change the DPS, when its interactions with every other weapon type are more complicated than that. The simplest gun has the least options for balancing to bring it in line with everything else. It may be easier to nerf it, but the end product will not be as good. Feel free to actually tackle any of the points I posted in the post above the one you quoted, rather than the relatively flimsy examples I put forth as an initial example. I'm waiting for your rationally minded response.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 780	Posted - 2013.10.19 22:51:00 - [9] - Quote Dominus Fatali wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Obviously Completely Unbiased Analysis wrote: AR - Long Range SMG ... SMG - Short Range Assault Rifle I fixed this for you. Whether or not these suit the descriptions is subjective. Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works. Correct. The internet proved this to me a while back with the irrefutable proof that irrefutable proof is irrefutable on the basis of it being irrefutable.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 791	Posted - 2013.10.20 04:37:00 - [10] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: 1) I'll help you out here, I'll give you numbers that say represent power (the higher the better) A) 10, 12, 9, 6, 15, 8, 11, 14, 50 Gets you a medium of 11, a mean of 15 Bring that 50 down gets you this B) 10, 12, 9, 6, 15, 8, 11, 14, 12 Medium 11, mean 10.77, Now lets say we balanced it the way you suggest C) 56, 48, 59, 41, 52, 59, 45, 49, 50 Now we have a medium of 50 and a mean of 51 Now, A) to B) goes from 11/15 to 11/10.77 And, A) to C) goes from 11/15 to 50/51 Now tell me which one preserves TTK fidelity? You would have to re-balance armor/shield stats again based on your suggestion 2) It only feels good because of the vast discrepancy, even if you went with your idea to buff everything else, the AR wouldn't feel so good anymore because it lost its advantage, the "feel good" is entirely due to its opness relative to other weapons. 1) First, I can do basic math, thank you. The first problem is that the power discrepancy is not that large. In raw DPS, we're looking at -¦25% most for most weapons. Factoring in how versatile it is changes this, but nerfing the AR doesn't make other weapons less situational. How do you measure "power." Assault Rifles have fast TTKs, but the bigger issues are the things holding the other weapons back. For instance, the Laser's optimal span of 19m and optimal span placing is what makes it harder to use and less effective on average. Within the optimal span, it's in a good place versus normal Assault Rifles, but hard to maintain. I'd be doing 10% damage 3m out of optimal range no matter what you did to the AR because there are flaws that need to be addressed with other weapons. If you have six mechanical pencils and five are rendered useless in different ways, you don't break the remaining pencil to bring them in line; you fix the other five. Otherwise, the feel of the game will be all off. This is not just "here's the DPS of the guns completely ignoring everything else, and here's the one that is too high." 2) Once again, you assume that it only feels good because of the power discrepancy. I would argue that the weapon simply handles well and drops the enemy's health at a satisfying rate within its effective range, with a solid clip size and accuracy, regardless of how fast this is compared to other weapons. If the niches of the other weapons were improved, the AR would still be satisfying to use in general while the other weapons would be more satisfying to use in their niches, as well. Sometimes the niche is not big enough and sometimes the weapon does not fulfill its niche. I agree that in scenarios like the one you mentioned that "nerfing" would be most effective. However, this has to do with how you view the power of a weapon. The different ranges at which the weapons compete and interact and their unique mechanics, from heat build up to projectile drop and speed to regular stats like range, they all matter. It is not comparing numbers that are all affect the guns in the same way because they aren't all variants of one gun role. Not all the guns are supposed to be as effective as Assault Rifles in Assault Rifle range. They are supposed to be more effective than an Assault Rifle within their role, during certain situations, which some are and some are not, for a VARIETY of reasons. The AR doesn't need to be less versatile. The other weapons need to be less situational due to the map design and general flow of the combat. The TTK for the AR could use some tweaking and maybe also shortening it's optimal range by 5m could help. However, when you have HMGs that can't hit the side of a barn beyond 20m, Plasma Cannons that fire a slow shot off once every 3 seconds, Shotguns that shoot through people, Novaknives that need several mods to even kill people 1m away, Laser's that drop from 120% efficacy against shields to 12% efficacy in 3m, Forge Guns that can 1 shot anyone half way across the map and several Breach variants that all are worse in almost every way than regular weapons, nerfing the AR substantially first won't do much except make everyone swap to Assault Scrambler Rifles. Note that I do not generally run Assault Rifles, so I am not just saying these things to "stop a nerf" on my "precious" rifle or anything. I die to them all day long. The truth is, all of the weapons need to be rebalanced in respect to each other. Sticking fingers in holes as they appear doesn't do anything when you don't repair the hull. Since there's more wrong with everything else combined than the AR (which admittedly does have some problems), I would prioritize that and then see how if the Assault Rifle needs nerfing once everything is sufficient in its niche and not so situational. Kane Fyea wrote: You can balance any weapon without effecting the DPS. Example changea weapons range, mag size, ammo capacity, recoil/dispersion, and many other things. My point is that the Assault Rifle is the bland vanilla weapon and the simplest. You have the stats every other gun has with no unique features. You've got your optimal range, drop to effective range, DPS and Damage Per Clip, then Accuracy, with headshot modifier. It's a simple weapon and there are only so many ways to nerf it and no matter how you do it, you won't get its performance alongside every other weapon type to be satisfactory without examining why the other weapons were not performing to begin with and balancing them all together.