DUST Search - Weapon skills -- kind of boring? (Feedback wanted)

Thor McStrut wrote:

Slag Emberforge wrote:

I think in a general sense there are two issues;

1. Currently some skills and their organization don't really make sense.
2. There are no active skills, either you have the best possible skills by having everything maxed rank or you haven't reached that point, just a list of passive benefits, no "real" decision making once you have enough sp

1. To you. To me, they make much sense.

2. I'm not sure I follow you. What's an active skill? Generally, skills unlock a tier, or provide a passive bonus, or both. Bonus are small, because every edge counts.

You have to remember, not only is not all core content released, but they are no where near close to the amount of fittings that will be available. There will be items that are only obtainable through salvage, or PvE, that will prob require less then complex level skills.

Personally, I'd prefer the skill point reqs to be a tad higher. While FPS games are generally short lived, and gamers likewise, CCP is trying their best to break the mold. This isn't a two year game. This is a ten year game, that will continue to evolve and grow. The free character and passive skill points will allow the gamers to come and go, but remain competitive.

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Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 33	Posted - 2013.10.18 13:47:00 - [1] - Quote I wanted to get everyone's feedback on this, as you know every weapon has a very similar tree. We have a base skill that provides much more benefit than others, a skill for ammo, for reload, proficiency, and fitting. If it is a "bullet" stylized gun you also have sharpshooter. There are no interesting variations, just a huge SP sink, and for weapons with low ammo counts, you have to drop a large chunk of SP just to get 5 extra rounds? Really? Another question is, why is fitting optimization after proficiency? Ok looking at the skills, you are an expert at using the weapon, you are now expertly proficient as well, ok now you can begin to learn how to carry it around more efficiently.. Why is this the final tier on the weapon and not built into proficiency or moved to the "second tier"? I think it would be more interesting to drop down these modifiers and revisit these skills. If we have skills for extra ammo and reloading, why not clip extension? If we have variants why do we no have branching skill trees to specialize into breach/assault/tactical/burst variants? Another interesting variation would be toggle-able skills perhaps weapon perks that you could specialize into, as in maybe you chose a laser rifle you can choose to increase the intensity which boosts damage and heat generation or maybe you specialize into a wider aperture which allows a greater hit area? You can have only one on at a time but with enough SP you could put points into both and switch between them as it suited you. What is the point? I think it would be interesting to lower current modifiers and give more options for weapon variation and specialization, as right now all of the skill trees really are essentially the same
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 33	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:01:00 - [2] - Quote Shameless self bump
Banning Hammer Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 1841	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:03:00 - [3] - Quote Well, most skills are pointless.... Fitting optimization; You can pretty much achieve that with Core Skills, and them use that for EVERY other single weapon. Reload Speed; If you use a handheld weapon as secondary this skill is totally useless. Ammo Capacity; Can easily be replace with Nanohives . Except for the Weapon Core level, the proficiency, and Bullet Dispersion, everything else can be replace with much better skills.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 35	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:18:00 - [4] - Quote Agreed, perhaps to make ammo capacity more attractive at levels 1, 3, 5 add a small amount of ammo regeneration, nothing game breaking as in 5% per second like a hive but maybe every. 3 seconds you gain 1% back? And a slightly different model for FG/MD/FL with low max bullet counts, an extra round every 20 seconds? Edit: this I realize could also fall into the role of toggleable Either bullet regeneration or slightly extended clip.
Banning Hammer Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 1842	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:24:00 - [5] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Agreed, perhaps to make ammo capacity more attractive at levels 1, 3, 5 add a small amount of ammo regeneration, nothing game breaking as in 5% per second like a hive but maybe every. 3 seconds you gain 1% back? And a slightly different model for FG/MD/FL with low max bullet counts, an extra round every 20 seconds? Edit: this I realize could also fall into the role of toggleable Either bullet regeneration or slightly extended clip. Yeah, that will work. Also if we had Scopes for most weapons, you could replace Fitting optimization for "Scope optimization", plus X zoom per level.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 35	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:30:00 - [6] - Quote Also a good plan I really was confused about AR having scope rails but no scope until rank 4, seems counter productive to introduce some variants early and others not until you are almost prototype. A choice of rounds would also make sense, especially with mass drivers, with the same caliber of "grenade" you can have a multitude of effects, would be a more straightforward way to make sense out of high area low damage/ high damage low area variants. Perhaps this would allow us to bring back smoke rounds for MD?
jlpgaming2752 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 4	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:33:00 - [7] - Quote I don't think the skills should go away, but maybe they should have more of a bonus. Like every level you get in ammo capacity gives you 20 or 30% more ammo. And there should be even more skills to spec into. If you're using a Mass Driver, there should be a skill for increasing the splash radius and rate of fire. If you have a laser, there should be a skill for extending the range and decreasing the overheat time.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 35	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:38:00 - [8] - Quote I didn't say these skills should necessarily go away at all. What I said is the sp cost for them should be reduced and more diverse skills should be added to both full that sp gap and allow for player variation.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2877	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:59:00 - [9] - Quote Ok, you bring up a lot of points. I'll try to address what I want to, from my perspective Fitting Optimization is at the end because it's that last little bit of PG you need to make a fitting valid. If you think about this game as trying to maximize the best possible fitting, then that should be the end goal and thus why it's at the end. The modifiers also need to be high because you do not "need" any of these bonus skills to operate a weapon, they are simply going to make you that little bit better. So make it something you have to invest a ton into for only marginal bonuses, it works well in my opinion. As far as new skills, I do agree certain weapons need more unique skills associated with them. Extending the clip size or magazine size may be over doing it a bit, but perhaps if you gave it a high enough multiplier and only barely extended it. I also think there should be a skill for energy based weapons to reduce the feedback delay time (time from when you overheat to when you can shoot again). Looking at new possible unique skills on a weapon to weapon basis would be cool. Lastly in regards to the variants, keep them all under the "Operations" skill. It's fine to unlock multiple items from the same skill tree, and encourages a little diversity even if you are going to specialize.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 36	Posted - 2013.10.18 15:08:00 - [10] - Quote Aero -- I agree with a decent chunk of what you are saying. +1: Clip extension can't go overboard - agreed, it would have to vary from weapon to weapon, doesn't even necessarily need to have a max rank if five in my opinion, the cost doesn't need to exorbitant, in fact I'd suggest just the opposite, moderate benefit, moderate cost Feedback delay - agreed, if we have a cooling skill currently (LR) why doesn't it cool down more quickly after an overheat? Variants- i am ok with unlocking them in the same tree, but perhaps slightly different skills to "tailor fit" the to preference? -1: I still disagree, if resource utilization was paramount than basic weapon skills (sidearm/light/heavy) shouldn't give CPU reduction, either bundle them together at the beginning or the end, it makes no sense to have one at the beginning and the other at the end.

Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 36	Posted - 2013.10.18 15:13:00 - [11] - Quote I think in a general sense there are two issues; 1. Currently some skills and their organization don't really make sense. 2. There are no active skills, either you have the best possible skills by having everything maxed rank or you haven't reached that point, just a list of passive benefits, no "real" decision making once you have enough sp
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 36	Posted - 2013.10.18 15:37:00 - [12] - Quote Bump.
calvin b Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 727	Posted - 2013.10.18 16:25:00 - [13] - Quote weapon reload on an AR is 3 seconds. If you get 5% for every level at max is a 25% reduction. That is less than a second reduction for a lot of SP. CCP please fix this. Also reduction in PG for weapons is a joke as well.
Thor McStrut Reckoners 238	Posted - 2013.10.18 16:30:00 - [14] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: I think in a general sense there are two issues; 1. Currently some skills and their organization don't really make sense. 2. There are no active skills, either you have the best possible skills by having everything maxed rank or you haven't reached that point, just a list of passive benefits, no "real" decision making once you have enough sp 1. To you. To me, they make much sense. 2. I'm not sure I follow you. What's an active skill? Generally, skills unlock a tier, or provide a passive bonus, or both. Bonus are small, because every edge counts. You have to remember, not only is not all core content released, but they are no where near close to the amount of fittings that will be available. There will be items that are only obtainable through salvage, or PvE, that will prob require less then complex level skills. Personally, I'd prefer the skill point reqs to be a tad higher. While FPS games are generally short lived, and gamers likewise, CCP is trying their best to break the mold. This isn't a two year game. This is a ten year game, that will continue to evolve and grow. The free character and passive skill points will allow the gamers to come and go, but remain competitive.
Doc Noah Algintal Core Gallente Federation 661	Posted - 2013.10.18 16:57:00 - [15] - Quote I think the PG fitting optimization being at the end with a 5 or 6x modifier is a bit unfair considering CPU is right at the beginning and applies to every weapon in the category with a modest 2x modifier. It screws over PG heavy classes like the gallente and the amarr while rewards heavy CPU users without requiring much of an effort and it goes hand in hand with unlocking new weapons while PG Opt is 100% pure SP sink (which isnt even worth it if you ask me).
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 40	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:17:00 - [16] - Quote Thor McStrut wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: I think in a general sense there are two issues; 1. Currently some skills and their organization don't really make sense. 2. There are no active skills, either you have the best possible skills by having everything maxed rank or you haven't reached that point, just a list of passive benefits, no "real" decision making once you have enough sp 1. To you. To me, they make much sense. 2. I'm not sure I follow you. What's an active skill? Generally, skills unlock a tier, or provide a passive bonus, or both. Bonus are small, because every edge counts. You have to remember, not only is not all core content released, but they are no where near close to the amount of fittings that will be available. There will be items that are only obtainable through salvage, or PvE, that will prob require less then complex level skills. Personally, I'd prefer the skill point reqs to be a tad higher. While FPS games are generally short lived, and gamers likewise, CCP is trying their best to break the mold. This isn't a two year game. This is a ten year game, that will continue to evolve and grow. The free character and passive skill points will allow the gamers to come and go, but remain competitive. 1. It makes sense to separate the skills for CPU/PG fitting ? It makes sense to invest skill points to carry one extra round? 2. An active skill is simply a skill that is not on at all times, pretty simple stuff. Either by having multiple skills with a limited amount being able to be utilized at once, or by having skills you can activate on the battlefield. - I do know that, however, I aim to garner ideas and suggestions in order to direct the development if at all possible to a setup which is more interesting. - If this is meant for a long run, CCP will need to work with players to dynamically make interesting content, that's how you keep players interested and coming back for more
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 155	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:41:00 - [17] - Quote Avoiding TL:DR- No to all of this. If the combat isn't interesting to you maybe this isn't the game for you. If the core mechanics of a game don't appeal to me, I don't play the game. Not trying to be a ****, but weapons balance has been making progress, and the changes you are suggesting would put Dust back at square one. So, no.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 41	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:53:00 - [18] - Quote Fair enough I can accept that, and adding content does obviously make it harder to balance, ammo regeneration and things of that nature seem hardly game breaking. But I can see the issue in trying to balance with many variable facets.
Cosgar ParagonX 6146	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:50:00 - [19] - Quote Doc Noah wrote: I think the PG fitting optimization being at the end with a 5 or 6x modifier is a bit unfair considering CPU is right at the beginning and applies to every weapon in the category with a modest 2x modifier. It screws over PG heavy classes like the gallente and the amarr while rewards heavy CPU users without requiring much of an effort and it goes hand in hand with unlocking new weapons while PG Opt is 100% pure SP sink (which isnt even worth it if you ask me). To be honest, there should just be one fitting optimization skill for each weapon size- Heavy, light and sidearm next to the operations skill on the tree. The amount of SP for the minimal gains is kind of pointless.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 130	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:55:00 - [20] - Quote I think you are bringing up some nice points about why the skill trees might need a bit of tweaking based on the niches or lore of the individual weapons. I don't agree with some of they specific ideas or mods you suggest but the start point is sound. From my perspective, the skill tree is ultimately about highlighting the niche or role of the weapon. The AR's throw this off a bit do to the different versions they have and lack of racial equivalents. For energy based weapons, having some different skills would really help. Lot's of different options for lasers (those things are wicked if skilled up and in the right hands) if you are looking to work over the skill tree. I use SCRs quite a bit since I can use the Imperial as my pseudo-sniper / TAC rifle and the Carthum as my "AR". I agree that a skill that cuts down the sieze time for overheats would be pretty handy and for the ASCR...something that cuts down recoil is way important. On that note - recoil on a pulse laser FFS!?

Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 499	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:16:00 - [21] - Quote Fitting optimization has to stay, of Amarr, Gallente, and ScR using suits would be ****.
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 155	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:17:00 - [22] - Quote I can agree on some levels that the weapons skill tree is a bit vanilla. The issue I see is when you have a game like Dust, where a majority of people aren't going to just drop after a few bullets, having a seemingly small advantage is misleading, because as the seconds tick by in a one on one fire fight that small advantage will more than likely become larger and larger. There is a strange side to Dust. We spend millions upon millions of ISK to buy top of the line equipment, more often than not to increase survivability. But depending on who you are fighting and what they are wearing, those 2 complex armor plates and 1 complex shield extender you spent so much time and ISK to get and run may just melt away in seconds. Anything beyond balancing what we have right now is a scary proposition. I've only been around 3 months and I've already seen the game swing wildly between favoring different weapons multiple times. Such a deep reworking of the skill tree, in my opinion, would basically require a completely new build. When you see the tactics some of these Corps apply to matches, some of the outside the box thinking they bring to the table, something as small as being able to slap a scope on any AR could fundamentally change every facet of Dust, tactics and balance wise. I'm all for games that let you build a weapon, but I don't think Dust needs to be that kind of game, at least not right now. Reworking the weapons skill tree is on par with CCP saying "ok guys, we screwed up, we are trashing what we have and starting over". With the current health of the game, CCP needs to focus on the important stuff, topics like PvE, getting vehicles right (and getting most, if not all of them in), and actually connecting Dust to Eve in a meaningful way. As for Infantry Active abilities, again balance is such a huge concern when you do something like that, and I highly doubt it would all just fall into place relatively easily. Furthermore, with the whole Logi role we have, I feel that if you start giving infantry the ability to run active abilities, you are heading down a road that possibly minimizes the effect of the Logi. I would say give Logis more tricks and equipment long before giving any footsoldier in the game the option of activating personal abilities. One last thing, Dust is meant to be played as a team, I don't feel like it was ever meant for one person to be able to consistently run effectively by their self. Everyone needs to be a little weak in some respects to promote team play.


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