DUST Search - How to balance AV with the vehicle changes

Spkr4theDead wrote:

Atiim wrote:

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Atiim wrote:

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Why cant you quote properly?

No you balance it right, if we dont have proto vehicles how can we balance it to proto AV? you cant so you start at basic

I use teamwork with my tank, when i use AV i can just solo it with ease and not have to use teamwork - love double standards from AV players, its never been easier to solo a vehicle

Also you always forget, vehicles are being changed and so will AV so its best to start at basic and build up so then adv is balanced with adv and same with proto

But a bad player like you doesnt understand logic, you cant kill a basic tank with lolprotoswarms and av nades, you cant even fit up a semi decent tank and would get destroyed in seconds by basic AV anyways

Frankly you are irrelevent

Umm you do realized that it was you who messed up the text for the quotes right?

I'm capable of teamwork, but good AV is not a skill that everyone has. And I honestly doubt your credibility with lolswarms, as you can only solo with PRO AV. If you get soloed by STD/ADV AV then you suck. There is not helping or rebalancing that.

As for balancing AV, you realize that a basic SL can't do crap against a good tank right? No that's what I thought.

Stop dodging the question, do you or do you not want everyone and his grandma to have PRO AV? Do you want full 16 man teams to have AV the second you call in a car? That qualifies as teamwork right? - love double standards from loltankers.

Maybe you should pour that 1 Million ISK Into some Kleenex, because tanking clearly is not good for you.

You mean you screwed up the quotes

Good AV requires skill? lolno swarms/AV nades do not, FG requires a little and PLC requires alot now which one is the most popular AV weapon to use?

Basic SL can, new tanks have 3 slots for tank and 2 slot for whatever is left over, but the basic AV cannot solo a tank in general unless the pilot is an idiot, get 2 ppl and you can kill it

You can have proto AV if i get my proto vehicles DS/LAV/HAV

Also you really think this game will stick to being 16v16 forvever? also everyone should have a AV suit tbh, if you dont then dont complain if a tank stomps on you

Stick to being irrelevent since you are clearly bad at this game

TBH I never had a problem with having to go up against PRO loltanks, actually that is what NEEDS TO HAPPEN. When did i say no PRO tanks? All I said is that if you have basic tanks, then I still want my PRO AV.

The way most ppl use AV requires no skill. But the most effective way to use AV is to wait until the tank drives out of cover and beat the ever loving crap out of it.

Tanking doesn't require much skill, drive around kill crap, and avoid AV.

Everybody should have a remote repairer and shield transporters for repairing each other if there harders and/or armor regenerators die. If you don't have that then don't complain when AV Stomps you? See what I did there

So you loltankers all use teamwork? So you never use your tank unless somebody else has a tank out? That's a lie.

No I don't think 16v16 is gonna be forever, and you need to stay irrelevant because you clearly suck at tanking. And I honestly couldn't give a crap what you think about my skills, if you are wrong then you are wrong. No getting around that.

We don't have PRO tanks. STD hull, mods and PRO turret =/= PRO hull, PRO mods and PRO turret. We don't have PRO tanks.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9513	Posted - 2013.10.17 18:54:00 - [1] - Quote 30% Proto 20% adv 10% std damage nerfs. Standardize Swarm launcher to 4 missiles every tier instead, adjust their damage to make up for it. Increase the Assault Forge Gun's dispersion by about 10-20% Give Assault Forge guns a significant amount of kick requiring re-aiming between shots. Reduce forge gun splash. Replace with conal splash if ever possible. Give PLC a sticky mechanic and damage aura. PLC Breech Variant - Holds the charge instead of lashing out. Slows the operator down. May justify with damage or projectile speed change. Reduction of AV grenades to 1, keep the same damage, make it impossible to restock via nano hives (as with all other grenades) Supply depots will still supply them at a slow rate. Add Burst Forge gun, add significant kick between each firing, requires longer charge and not suitable for long range attacks. No splash, decent damage, just highest damage compression in the shortest amount of time. Total damage similar to other forges. Change Assault Swarm to fire its missiles one at a time. Magazine accounts for this. Lock is not broken between firings. Semi-auto operation mode with slight delay between each firing. Breach Swarm Launcher - Reduce Lock Box Size to that of the forge gun reticle, Longer lock time, significantly more damage but less agility Give Vehicles Multispectrum Flare Launchers. Prevents swarm launcher lock ons and tracking of active ones. Give Vehicles a Density field. Prevents forge gun strikes and plasma cannon strikes from hitting the vehicle, short life span and saves from one or two shots when its up. Give vehicles a mine thumper, destroys Remote explosive, proximity mines, and other mine devices in front of the vehicle. Give vehicles a mine layer 'turret'. Mines are a bit visible and can be destroyed easily and take time to arm. There is a max limit on how many can be deployed (10) Gyrostabilizer small turrets (against base vehicles left and right movement not up and down). Decrease their rate of turn. Allow third person camera for those gunning on the lav. Get rid of the camera scope. Fix desync issues. Spawn missiles further out from the tube. Give all av weapons far better trails. Give vehicles better damage zones, severely damaging one part effects the performance of the vehicle. Readjust the damage effectiveness on these zones.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9513	Posted - 2013.10.17 19:35:00 - [2] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Did you pull that number out of your backside? I don't know where he pulled those numbers either, I know CCP has those numbers though and it does help drive some balance changes just not currently. Usually prices and valued item. Just right now most HAVs are capable of getting the magical survival number of +1 match reliably and in theory if you can survive one match you can survive a large number of matches. Most other suits give or take die at least anywhere from 1 to 5 times a match so the survival ratio quote is way out of portion its probably close to 3 to 1 survival on the prototype levels. What is another thing that makes HAVs frustrating is as an AV guy you cannot guarantee death of the quarry, no matter how well executed your plan may be its very very prone to failing to deal the needed amounts of damage. You will never get this situation with prototype infantry because a well planned militia ambush will see to a proto suit dying. The other problem is the massive amount of manpower required to kill a tank. At usual you have to dedicate nearly 1/3rd of the team in getting rid of a good tank and when the hostile field. The final factor is what I like to call the break point. How many well fitted HAVs does it take to make it impossible for the other team to come close to remotely countering regardless of gear. That answer used to be 4 back pre chromosome era. Currently its near max vehicle limits which is a good thing in particular and that line should never be crossed over to allow that scenario. And as usual the damn whole scenario keeps changing to get a good read what needs to go where and we need to be. I have already stated our game is a bit harder to balance because our tanks are not free and are not cleverly disguised glorified power-ups as many other games have it (mega size, mega speed, mega health, mega damage Rawr!) As I said before the vehicles need roles and need to be good at the base ones. I mean why else do you guys are screaming for the ADS to come back but not the logi or scout lav? Role. My thoughts on this is the following LAV is a small turret platform - designed to carry a light turret operator into battle. HAV is a Large turret platform - designed to carry a large turret operation into battle. Dropships - aerial transport. This seems odd and backwards but hear me out a bit. What defines most suits and what you expect them to do is the weapons and fitting. A scout sniper, a scout recon, a scout saboteur, all using the same suit but all relying on the light frame's mobility and high stamina to deliver the role to the field where it is needed. I feel vehicles should be the same manner that you decided to pick said vehicle and fit because the base hull has the best chances of getting that role to where its needed. This would mean the turrets themselves need roles as well with small blasters being anti-infantry close in, small rails rails for anti-infantry afar, small missiles anti-vehicle, and large blasters being anti shields, large rails anti armor, and large missiles anti-structure as their best forte's but each should be able to drift into each other roles not as effectively.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9514	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:00:00 - [3] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Easier to drop adv/proto and balance by basic vs basic the number of missiles hasnt been a problem, its the tracking around corners and locking on through objects and firing while not looking at target and keeping lock and also jumping while getting a lock on and firing while jumping etc can deal with FG splash should be lower than a vehicle mounted large railgun sticky? meaning what exactly it sticks to the target and doesnt say home into the target?, anything homing is bad would prefer if it had no homing mechanism, requires a direct hit on the hull for it to go off, if it misses and hit the ground disappears 1 second later, fine with no nano hive resupply and slow depot resupply, reduce damage by 50% its an AV support weapon not an AV weapon Not sure if i see the need for this one so tech it could fire 12missiles all at once, fastest finger 1st n all that, need numbers for missile delay between each one fix the SL 1st would it take a slot up? also would it need reloading or falre ammo to be bought and how long till they can be used again would it take a slot up?also would it need reloading or falre ammo to be bought and how long till they can be used again would it take a turret slot up? are the mines AI or AV or both? decrease turn? why thats WOT zone and requires a buff to all vehicles, also how do you fix stuff? whats the hp for each mod, how do you hit each mod or is it lucky hit? way too many problems with WOT method which makes everything alot more complicated so no You balance top down. Military Grade Tanks are Tier 2, The Enforcers are Tier 3. Both where designed without standard-advanced-prototype progression in mind and are poor excuses for their what would have been respectively the advanced and prototype tiers. There are not many other weapon systems that gains 50% more damage between basic and prototype + with the damage gain between swarm launchers makes the effect that much more exaggerated. Should but it should also be conal from point of impact instead of spherical to mimic what most AV really should be doing. Where as the railgun on vehicles can retain the spherical. Sticky as in you shoot a vehicle with the plasma cannon the shot will stick to the vehicle causing damage over time. Best used on very speedy vehicles or hit and run vehicles that do not allow themselves to get shot for a long time. AV grenades need a direct contact with vehicle variant to keep the current damage levels. Homing variants should suffer damage loss. Timed grenades I do not see being valuable in anti-vehicle uses as PS2 has demonstrated such grenades are utterly worthless time and time again. Burst forge gun is more for close in ambush limited window, allows an operator to mag out before he gets killed. Basically its a fancier breach variant but instead of one single shot doing all the damage its a burst of shots instead that is probably better used against ground vehicles instead of air vehicles as the current breach is. Not at once 12 missiles over 12-24 seconds after the initial lock on. Design intent is to make a harassment weapon to scare off vehicles. Constantly nailing a pilot with missiles can drive them off. See Desync Issues - As an AV operator you will notice swarms never disappear, go through stuff, magically around corners. As a third party observer you will see swarms do all the things pilot claims from launch to target. As a target you rarely see the missiles and when you do it is doing the weird things. Three points of view three different stories = desync issues, and the story most true is the operator's. Yes you're giving up a slot to gain an immunity to a set of possible weapon systems. It could be charge based as well or cooldown cool up. It would take up the same slot as a resistance plate so you're basically trading taking less damage for taking no damage. Mine layers are a small turret unless built in. Type of mines is dependent on the launcher. Decrease rate of turn to that of a mechanical feel would help with small turret accuracy as overshooting the target is fairly common on a few vehicles, This however must be combined with the gyro tabs because the vehicle dictates where the gun is pointing far more than the operator. Not saying to follow WoT's system exactly. Just make it sensible and allow for saturation, for example shooting the same tread over and over again is not going to do much more damage to the main HP. Zones could be simplified such at large turret, treads, body, engine, wheels, small turret. AV weapons with splash would be more preferable for taking out parts while those with no splash would be more inclined to be killing the vehicle instead.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9514	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:01:00 - [4] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Atiim wrote: You aren't crap for AV untill you go proto Amarr heavy frame, Dau 2 and EX 11 says you are wrong. My Standard FG/SL and Sleek AV would also say you're wrong too.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9516	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:50:00 - [5] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Atiim wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Atiim wrote: You aren't crap for AV untill you go proto Amarr heavy frame, Dau 2 and EX 11 says you are wrong. My Standard FG/SL and Sleek AV would also say you're wrong too. Sleek AV nades? XD They do so little in comparison to the packed variant, and if we can only carry one (per your request) then al AV nades will be useless except the packed ones. And Why would anyone use STD gear? Do you like killing tanks? Or do you just like taking 16x as long to do so Doesn't matter if it's PRO or STD, you can't destroy tanks with PRO anyway. Most of the things I am throwing at these days are LAVs and dropships. Tanks I just nuke with the primary weapon.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9520	Posted - 2013.10.18 00:19:00 - [6] - Quote Atiim wrote: Ok well when I run you over and get away with 100hp because you wen't with the weaker gun (or grenade) I will mail you personally and ask if you regret using them for support as opposed to a YOU SHALL NOT PASS, denial weapon edit (because I accidentally hit post instead of preview) I remember those chromosome tanks. Those were scary. And I still know about Logi LAVs. Those things zipping at you full speed with nitrous is pee your pants scary. And I got sick of running against people with vehicles. So instead of being a butthurt scrub I decided to be a Logi LAV driver. Didn't help against other tanks. Then I became a tanker. Wasn't as efficient against entire squads of tanks. Then I tried AV. It sucked. But then I upgraded and upgraded and when I got to proto, Hmm. Getting better. Tried Lai Dais. Hmm. closer.. closer.. Got profecincy lvl 3. Perfect . I will never chose a STD or ADV when I go up against vehicles. And I will never get a sleek av grenade when the packed ones guarantee a victory. Would you bring a water gun or a Fire Truck to put out a fire? Why in gods name would you suggest using something weaker. And If I do use something weaker then why should I only carry one? Give me 5 GOOD reasons why I should use a weaker variant and risk letting them live and I'll stop going AV. And no CPU/PG is not a good reason. Mercy? Don't make me laugh. Trust me if you run me over its because I wasn't trying to kill you.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9540	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:26:00 - [7] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: LOL Good AV isn't even a skill! The game takes care of aiming for you! How can that possibly be considered to be "good?" Go solo a Madruger starting at stand off range with infantry escort and tell me that again.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9541	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:53:00 - [8] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: LOL Good AV isn't even a skill! The game takes care of aiming for you! How can that possibly be considered to be "good?" Go solo a Madruger on foot starting at stand off range with infantry escort and tell me that again. Too easy with proto swarms, 9k dmg coming at you in 3seconds Or just drive a LAV near and pop out and fire using the lav as cover Done it with milita swarms before the fixed the lock step.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9541	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:58:00 - [9] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: LOL Good AV isn't even a skill! The game takes care of aiming for you! How can that possibly be considered to be "good?" Go solo a Madruger on foot starting at stand off range with infantry escort and tell me that again. Too easy with proto swarms, 9k dmg coming at you in 3seconds Or just drive a LAV near and pop out and fire using the lav as cover Done it with milita swarms before the fixed the lock step. LOL "I've taken out the enemy MCC with a forge. Fact" Actually I have 120+ points at the time.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9541	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:59:00 - [10] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Atiim wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Atiim wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Why cant you quote properly? No you balance it right, if we dont have proto vehicles how can we balance it to proto AV? you cant so you start at basic I use teamwork with my tank, when i use AV i can just solo it with ease and not have to use teamwork - love double standards from AV players, its never been easier to solo a vehicle Also you always forget, vehicles are being changed and so will AV so its best to start at basic and build up so then adv is balanced with adv and same with proto But a bad player like you doesnt understand logic, you cant kill a basic tank with lolprotoswarms and av nades, you cant even fit up a semi decent tank and would get destroyed in seconds by basic AV anyways Frankly you are irrelevent Umm you do realized that it was you who messed up the text for the quotes right? I'm capable of teamwork, but good AV is not a skill that everyone has. And I honestly doubt your credibility with lolswarms, as you can only solo with PRO AV. If you get soloed by STD/ADV AV then you suck. There is not helping or rebalancing that. As for balancing AV, you realize that a basic SL can't do crap against a good tank right? No that's what I thought. Stop dodging the question, do you or do you not want everyone and his grandma to have PRO AV? Do you want full 16 man teams to have AV the second you call in a car? That qualifies as teamwork right? - love double standards from loltankers. Maybe you should pour that 1 Million ISK Into some Kleenex, because tanking clearly is not good for you. You mean you screwed up the quotes Good AV requires skill? lolno swarms/AV nades do not, FG requires a little and PLC requires alot now which one is the most popular AV weapon to use? Basic SL can, new tanks have 3 slots for tank and 2 slot for whatever is left over, but the basic AV cannot solo a tank in general unless the pilot is an idiot, get 2 ppl and you can kill it You can have proto AV if i get my proto vehicles DS/LAV/HAV Also you really think this game will stick to being 16v16 forvever? also everyone should have a AV suit tbh, if you dont then dont complain if a tank stomps on you Stick to being irrelevent since you are clearly bad at this game TBH I never had a problem with having to go up against PRO loltanks, actually that is what NEEDS TO HAPPEN. When did i say no PRO tanks? All I said is that if you have basic tanks, then I still want my PRO AV. The way most ppl use AV requires no skill. But the most effective way to use AV is to wait until the tank drives out of cover and beat the ever loving crap out of it. Tanking doesn't require much skill, drive around kill crap, and avoid AV. Everybody should have a remote repairer and shield transporters for repairing each other if there harders and/or armor regenerators die. If you don't have that then don't complain when AV Stomps you? See what I did there So you loltankers all use teamwork? So you never use your tank unless somebody else has a tank out? That's a lie. No I don't think 16v16 is gonna be forever, and you need to stay irrelevant because you clearly suck at tanking. And I honestly couldn't give a crap what you think about my skills, if you are wrong then you are wrong. No getting around that. We don't have PRO tanks. STD hull, mods and PRO turret =/= PRO hull, PRO mods and PRO turret. We don't have PRO tanks. Falchion is tier 3

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 9541	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:03:00 - [11] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Actually I have 120+ points at the time. Reading comprehension 0 Herp derp, so says a guy who cannot seem to survive a match in a maddy.