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Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
702
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Posted - 2013.10.16 08:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Flix Keptick wrote:Mininiguns in real life have a range of 1000meters. Thats way more than any assault rifle.
Just going to leave this here You can have real world minigun ranges when we get real world AR ranges
What matters is the ratio, since the scale of the battlefields and the flow of combat is not the same as real life. You want real life ranging? Alright, let's scale it down by 10 from real life. Enjoy 50m Assault Rifles and 100m Heavy Machine Guns. 
Who even cares what they are in real life, anyways? These are not real guns. All that matters is balance. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
703
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Posted - 2013.10.16 09:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
You know there's something wrong when a STD Amarr Logi with a STD SMG kills half the Heavies with HMGs he comes across. I just aim at the head while jumping around cover like mad. Half the HMG bullets miss, I get my headshot multipliers, dead Heavy. No, seriously. Last night I almost died to dozens of Heavies at CQC. One third of the time I die, one third of the time they die and one third of the time I just run away and heal before Laser Rifling them to death from a hilltop. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
707
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Posted - 2013.10.16 10:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Acturus Galaxy wrote:The HMG dps is fine, the suit using it cannot compete with quick proto shield tanked suits. lol... you mean potential DPS. The numbers you watch is based on every single bullet hitting, which is a range of about 0-2m. After that bullet spread lowers DPS the further away the target is.
Even with every bullet hitting, you're only dealing 25% more damage than an Assault Rifle user within optimal. Really, everything can out DPS the HMG. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
709
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Posted - 2013.10.16 11:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Acturus Galaxy wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Acturus Galaxy wrote:The HMG dps is fine, the suit using it cannot compete with quick proto shield tanked suits. lol... you mean potential DPS. The numbers you watch is based on every single bullet hitting, which is a range of about 0-2m. After that bullet spread lowers DPS the further away the target is. Even with every bullet hitting, you're only dealing 25% more damage than an Assault Rifle user within optimal. Really, everything can out DPS the HMG. Then please explain how it is that I consistently can win 1v1 in cqc vs AR users. I am big and slow and should be easy to hit with the aim assist and yet I win most of these encounters. I can keep the button pressed and shooting for far longer time than the AR player have to reload and switch weapon unless it is a logi with no sidearm.
I'm sorry if you don't like it, but there's this little thing called math. You can calculate the DPS and compare them yourself. Go ahead.
Also, how much health do you have compared to your opponent? In CQC, you should be doing about the same damage or slightly less after inaccuracy. As long as you're both holding your cursors over each other, you'll win because of higher HP if the AR doesn't headshot. Let me remind you that the AR can headshot and do 50% more damage, instantly making it far more damaging to you even IF you land every single bullet. Good luck getting headshots with your HMG.
I kill Heavies all the time with a Standard Logi fit and Standard SMG. They have twice my health almost and a HMG, yet I kill them by hopping like an idiot and headshotting them.
Keep in mind this is about the gun and not the suit. If you used an Assault Rifle instead of a HMG, you'd probably be just as lethal at CQC and far more lethal at medium range. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
709
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Posted - 2013.10.16 11:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
You know what, screw waiting for others to do that math. I'll post it since everyone is too incompetent. A standard AR does 34 * 750 / 60 damage a second, which is 425. A standard HMG does 16 * 2000 / 60 damage a second, which is slightly over 530 damage a second. If all bullets hit, which is far from the truth. Even if they do, the AR can headshot for 640 damage a second. Viola, out damaged even if you land every shot. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
709
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vesago Ghostcore wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Flix Keptick wrote:Mininiguns in real life have a range of 1000meters. Thats way more than any assault rifle.
Just going to leave this here You can have real world minigun ranges when we get real world AR ranges What matters is the ratio, since the scale of the battlefields and the flow of combat is not the same as real life. You want real life ranging? Alright, let's scale it down by 10 from real life. Enjoy 50m Assault Rifles and 100m Heavy Machine Guns. Who even cares what they are in real life, anyways? These are not real guns. All that matters is balance. In real life it only takes one bullet to completely disable/kill a soldier, and body armor isn't ablative. Reality is irrelevant.
Which is why I posted the last sentence. The post is in response to others talking about IRL ranges. By no means would I use IRL ranges and damage in Dust. That would be horrible. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
709
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:8213 wrote:I use HMGs almost never, but when I do, I actually do better than with my SCR and AR. My WP is lower, as I can't carry equipment, but my KDR with it is around 20.
I didn't use HMGs when Sharpshooter was a Skill onto its own, so I can't compare. I do know Heavies were gods on the battlefield back then, so perhaps HMG users became spoiled?
If used properly, there is no beating a Heavy outright. They are meant to lock down a choke point and dominate tight spaces. They are meant to just kill, kill, kill and thats what they do when used as intended.
Now, a Heavy needs a Logi too, they work as a team. Heavies may not trample the battlefield anymore, but they are still massively effective.
HMGs, like SCRs, are great in the right hands. The players that know how to control engagements. Heavies can't just rely on being beefed up walking HAVs anymore they actually have to play with concern.
My vote: HMGs are fine right now. When I heard there's a guy out there holding down a 20 KDR with his HMG I had to look you up. Imagine my surprise when I saw your KDR was 1.12. Maybe in the game you're playing in your head with your imaginary friends the HMG is beast, but it's not in the game the rest of us are playing.
No, no, no. He just forgot the radix point. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
710
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Posted - 2013.10.16 12:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Acturus Galaxy wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:
I'm sorry if you don't like it, but there's this little thing called math. You can calculate the DPS and compare them yourself. Go ahead.
Also, how much health do you have compared to your opponent? In CQC, you should be doing about the same damage or slightly less after inaccuracy. As long as you're both holding your cursors over each other, you'll win because of higher HP if the AR doesn't headshot. Let me remind you that the AR can headshot and do 50% more damage, instantly making it far more damaging to you even IF you land every single bullet. Good luck getting headshots with your HMG.
I kill Heavies all the time with a Standard Logi fit and Standard SMG. They have twice my health almost and a HMG, yet I kill them by hopping like an idiot and headshotting them.
Keep in mind this is about the gun and not the suit. If you used an Assault Rifle instead of a HMG, you'd probably be just as lethal at CQC and far more lethal at medium range.
Hehe, yes, I have been killed by jumping rabbits a few times. But using the mouse usually lets me track players like you even when you are jumping around. I have killed players in advanced gear I would normally consider very skilled in cqc 1v1 with the HMG, as long as you are keeping 1-2 meters distance, any closer and I loose my orientation due to lack of FPS skills and end up spraying wildly around me. Let me explain how I get most of my kills as a heavy. I stay defending staircases or doorways, shooting as they enter. My crosshair is already on the target as they enter the doorway while they have to spend a second locating me and moving their aim to me unless they are very skilled at FPS. Most back off or if in militia suits dies before returning the fire. I can keep shooting for a long time, use ADS and most suits goes down quickly. It is another situation you describe where we jump each other, I try to avoid these situations unless I have 1-2 team mates behind me. Sometimes I just functions as a moveable barrier for team mates, being the first to enter a doorway, shoot a little and moving back to cover. My team mates move forward at the same time, using me as cover while shooting at the red dots inside the doorway. Sometimes our team succeed in getting the defending group to back away. I hate skilled FPS players like you  there is no arguing that a skilled AR FPS player is deadly in most situations and is experienced enough to know when to back off, being to fast to catch for a heavy.
Sorry if I was sounding condescending. It doesn't even take much skill. A Duvolle with mods getting a headshot takes 1.5 seconds to deal the 1,500 health a super bricked Heavy has. While that's great you can kill assaults in doorways, not all of the objectives are in small buildings. Many are relatively open. Enough that a Duvolle can shread a Heavy in seconds before he can react. Lately, I've been seeing less and less Heavies with HMGs. They are still effective within about 10m in buildings and compounds, but their DPS isn't good enough beyond that. They really do need a buff of some sort. I don't want them to be able to stand in the middle of an open field and rack up endless kills, but it'd be nice if when I saw a Heavy within 30m I thought "threat" instead of "circle around and headshot while tossing grenades since he can't shoot for his life at that range," or "ignore."
Anyways, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, it's very simple. The Assault Rifle either completely out does, or comes close in damage to, most weapons at most ranges. Thus, there is little incentive to use anything other than an Assault Rifle. When you have Heavies picking up Assault Rifles instead of Heavy Machine Guns for terminal defense, there's a problem. Plus, if you need range you can always go with the Duvolle Tactical. 60m range competes well with Scramblers and Laser Rifles with no additional SP costs. :/ |
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