DUST Search - HMG needs a slight buff...

Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:

Acturus Galaxy wrote:

I would not call a basic suit with a total cost of 20k isk for advanced geat and I get more kills with this than my proto gallente duvolle suit. And I would not call myself green as I have been playing since January.

If you are a vet and do poorly with the current HMG in pub matches, you are not very good at this. I would think a vet should know how to use the HMG properly by now. I read these threads as posted by new HMG players playing the heavy class wrong thinking they are a one man army.

Read my post before commenting on what I have written, I am trying to note down how I manage to run the HMG successfully and provide additional input instead of just saying that HMG sucks. I cannot shoot down AR users at 50 meters etc.

I have no experiences from PC and cannot comment on using the HMG in anything but pub matches, I have no interest in participating in PC matches, tried it twice with way to much lagging playing from Europe. I did participate in several corp matches pre Uprising using officer HMG, I had sharpshooter at 5 but stayed between buildings and never really needed the extra range.
Even then you would be insane for engaging ARs in open terrain, not to mention the laser rifles which could melt my proto heavy in a second before Uprising. My survival rate has improved as heavy in Uprising then before Uprising. Not to mention the price of the heavy which has dropped significantly, I remember suits costing 400k isk running a heavy.

I have killed proto players with my HMG and have been killed plenty of times by proto players. I am fully aware of its limitations, you must be crazy if you try to go against a good proto squad even with a boundless. I have seen many good proto squads whom do not try to engage my heavy 1v1 but flank me or spam grenades at me knowing I am slow. This is all fair in my book, the heavy cannot and should not be able to take on a whole squad alone. He can hold them back from entering a hallway with suppression while your team mates support with AR, grenades and mass drivers.

No descent proto AR player would willingly enter a cqc 1v1 vs a proto heavy. They either take the heavy down at a distance and flank him before opening fire. I see nothing wrong here.

anybody doing bad in any class in pub games in DUST is bad. I can use a militia suit with militia guns and can almost guarantee I finish top 5... in PUBLIC LOBBIES.

Doesn't mean militia gear is good.

Your point of view comes from playing people in these lobbies. Until you've played competitive matches, your opinion on the class means next to nothing when veteran players are talking about the class.

I've been playing this since last year June. I know a thing or 2 about heavies and what that used to be, and the joke it is now. I take great offense to people calling the HMG "fine". Know why? Because I invested a huge chunk of my 21 million SP into the class, and i've seen how weak it is while playing against good players.

Then when I switch to my other class, my "weaker" class because I have less SP invested into it, i do better.

Please, I mean no offense, and it's nothing personal, but take your public game experience elsewhere. This thread is about making the HMG better, not leaving it alone because in your limited experience it's "fine"


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Acturus Galaxy Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2013.10.16 08:13:00 - [1] - Quote In my opinion the HMG is fine in the current build, it is just not useful in all matches and circumstances. I used to play heavy only before Uprising and has just recently skilled into heavy again as I got tired waiting for the Gallente Heavy. The heavy in current build works really good at point defending in the new urban maps in skirmish and domination matches. It also has its uses in regular ambush matches all depending on the team your are on. My heavy suits is just the basic heavy with advanced HMG and I have two suits, one with the assault HMG and one with the MH-82 HMG. They only cost 20-30k isk and I very rarely go negative isk in the matches where I use the heavy. I love defending the letters inside the buildings in the new maps. Taking out red dot after red dot as they swarm into the doorway, seeing all the nice +50/+60 points flashing on my screen. The assault HMG is actually very descent at longer ranges, my longest kill is 65 meters with the assault and that was in a 1v1 match. I know it was a militia dude and not a proto player but it still felt good. 1. Never stand still, strafe like crazy as if you were a medium AR user. It actually works really good to avoid getting killed. I have seen soo many heavies both now and before Uprising standing still relying on the armor to soak up the dps received. Even the slow dance deflects some of the dps. 2. Your HMG will severely slow down the opponent, they will most often panic when you start damaging their armor 3. Never run across open space unless you are 100% sure there is no red dot user within 100 meters. 4. Use a cheap scout with droplinks to place spawn points for your heavy in cover. Having your team spawn around your heavy as you defend the area give allot of WP. 5. Have a logi with repair hives. There are some skirmish maps where you have a supply depot close to some of the letters, drop allot of hives around the letter, run back and switch into your heavy. Have been in several matches where we were two heavies dancing around on my triage hives gunning down lots of reds as they tried to take the letter. 6. Use the heavy to counter another heavy defending a letter. 7. Make sure to always have team mates around you, you will need someone to cover your back and cover you when reloading or if the HMG overheats. I hate sneaky scouts sneaking up behind my back. NEVER RUN OFF ALONE. 8. Accept that in some matches you are better off with a AR medium suit. When your team are scattered you are better off with a quick AR suit, or hanging back and forge sniping. 9. Shield tank the basic heavy, my experience from playing Gallente is that shield beats armor unless you have a logi with you or can drop your own triage hives. My heavy with 500+ shield and 700+ armor (cannot remember the exact stats) is doing really good. 10 COVER, use the cover when you start taking damage, do not stand out in the open believing the HMG is godly. Stay close to cover just like a AR user. Take cover, get your shield recharged and return to combat. 11. Play the heavy/HMG as an AR medium frame. Except in 1v1 in cqc you are almost 100% sure to win and the opponent will most often try to run away. 12. Accept that a proto duvolle logi suit with complex damage mods will melt your basic heavy which is only fair. My heavy cost 21k isk, it would be unfair if I could take down several incoming proto suits costing close to 200k isk each. 13. Change into a cheap AR suit when the opposing team have thale and forge snipers on top of the buildings, the slow heavy is too easy a target. I only have level 3 in HMG which is sufficient to me as I always run in cheap suits, my 247k isk logi suit is collecting dust, I very rarely run in anything above 40k isk and can keep a positive isk income in almost every match including a positive kdr and being in top 3. Except when I experiment with new weapons or the use of the assault HMG, then I tend to die allot ;) Have seen some proto heavies in matches do very good and end up top of the leaderboards, their boundless melting my MH-82 build before I get their shields down. There is definitely some advantage to running proto heavy, I am just not ready to put in the isk needed, I have a mill unused sp at the moment, still waiting for the other racial heavy suits.
Acturus Galaxy Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2013.10.16 10:13:00 - [2] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Acturus Galaxy wrote: snip I'm sorry...but you're talking about using advanced gear in public matches aren't you? Next thing you're talking to seasoned veteran heavies, and want to tell us how to play a class some us have played since closed beta? I appreciate your TL;DR post, but you saying the HMG is fine is like me saying the dropships are fine because I can get to point B from A just fine. I just need to watch out for buildings and FGs on the way The HMG is not fine. It was fine in Chromosome, it was passable in Uprising up until 1.4 or whenever they fixed the AA. Right now, it is not fine. It's borderline useless in competitive matches. It does NOTHING that a Duvolle wielding player can't do better. People judging a class off pub games is the reason why the heavy is such a joke in competitive situations! Stop saying it's fine cuz you play pub games 24/7 and do good against bad players using cheap suits! I would not call a basic suit with a total cost of 20k isk for advanced geat and I get more kills with this than my proto gallente duvolle suit. And I would not call myself green as I have been playing since January. If you are a vet and do poorly with the current HMG in pub matches, you are not very good at this. I would think a vet should know how to use the HMG properly by now. I read these threads as posted by new HMG players playing the heavy class wrong thinking they are a one man army. Read my post before commenting on what I have written, I am trying to note down how I manage to run the HMG successfully and provide additional input instead of just saying that HMG sucks. I cannot shoot down AR users at 50 meters etc. I have no experiences from PC and cannot comment on using the HMG in anything but pub matches, I have no interest in participating in PC matches, tried it twice with way to much lagging playing from Europe. I did participate in several corp matches pre Uprising using officer HMG, I had sharpshooter at 5 but stayed between buildings and never really needed the extra range. Even then you would be insane for engaging ARs in open terrain, not to mention the laser rifles which could melt my proto heavy in a second before Uprising. My survival rate has improved as heavy in Uprising then before Uprising. Not to mention the price of the heavy which has dropped significantly, I remember suits costing 400k isk running a heavy. I have killed proto players with my HMG and have been killed plenty of times by proto players. I am fully aware of its limitations, you must be crazy if you try to go against a good proto squad even with a boundless. I have seen many good proto squads whom do not try to engage my heavy 1v1 but flank me or spam grenades at me knowing I am slow. This is all fair in my book, the heavy cannot and should not be able to take on a whole squad alone. He can hold them back from entering a hallway with suppression while your team mates support with AR, grenades and mass drivers. No descent proto AR player would willingly enter a cqc 1v1 vs a proto heavy. They either take the heavy down at a distance and flank him before opening fire. I see nothing wrong here.
Acturus Galaxy Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2013.10.16 10:26:00 - [3] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: People judging a class off pub games is the reason why the heavy is such a joke in competitive situations! Stop saying it's fine cuz you play pub games 24/7 and do good against bad players using cheap suits! Not everyone enjoys running around in proto suits 24/7. I usually leave matches if I am on the proto stomping side, those matches are extremely boring and I wonder why some players do this 24/7. I very much prefer being on the loosing site against the proto players for the challenge, and yes, I often end up with a forge gun trying to get some cheap kills as my heavy is outclassed by the proto players. I see plenty of experienced good players playing in cheap suits as it is more challenging, and I see proto players running in cheap suits when they are without their squads and only run proto when they have a proto squad. Look at it this way, shield tanked Caldari and Minmartar often beats armor tanked Gallente. Today we have the dual tanked basic suit and armor tanked sentinel. They already have a disadvantage being armor tanked, wait for the Caldari and Minmartar heavy suits. I see this problem more of an discussion on armor vs shields balance in Dust. A fast shield tanked proto Caldari is still the best, I get as many kills in a quick standard minmartar suit and exile than I can get with my slower Duvolle Gallente proto logi or Proto basic medium frame. The HMG dps is fine, the suit using it cannot compete with quick proto shield tanked suits.
Acturus Galaxy Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2013.10.16 10:54:00 - [4] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Acturus Galaxy wrote: I would not call a basic suit with a total cost of 20k isk for advanced geat and I get more kills with this than my proto gallente duvolle suit. And I would not call myself green as I have been playing since January. If you are a vet and do poorly with the current HMG in pub matches, you are not very good at this. I would think a vet should know how to use the HMG properly by now. I read these threads as posted by new HMG players playing the heavy class wrong thinking they are a one man army. Read my post before commenting on what I have written, I am trying to note down how I manage to run the HMG successfully and provide additional input instead of just saying that HMG sucks. I cannot shoot down AR users at 50 meters etc. I have no experiences from PC and cannot comment on using the HMG in anything but pub matches, I have no interest in participating in PC matches, tried it twice with way to much lagging playing from Europe. I did participate in several corp matches pre Uprising using officer HMG, I had sharpshooter at 5 but stayed between buildings and never really needed the extra range. Even then you would be insane for engaging ARs in open terrain, not to mention the laser rifles which could melt my proto heavy in a second before Uprising. My survival rate has improved as heavy in Uprising then before Uprising. Not to mention the price of the heavy which has dropped significantly, I remember suits costing 400k isk running a heavy. I have killed proto players with my HMG and have been killed plenty of times by proto players. I am fully aware of its limitations, you must be crazy if you try to go against a good proto squad even with a boundless. I have seen many good proto squads whom do not try to engage my heavy 1v1 but flank me or spam grenades at me knowing I am slow. This is all fair in my book, the heavy cannot and should not be able to take on a whole squad alone. He can hold them back from entering a hallway with suppression while your team mates support with AR, grenades and mass drivers. No descent proto AR player would willingly enter a cqc 1v1 vs a proto heavy. They either take the heavy down at a distance and flank him before opening fire. I see nothing wrong here. anybody doing bad in any class in pub games in DUST is bad. I can use a militia suit with militia guns and can almost guarantee I finish top 5... in PUBLIC LOBBIES. Doesn't mean militia gear is good. Your point of view comes from playing people in these lobbies. Until you've played competitive matches, your opinion on the class means next to nothing when veteran players are talking about the class. I've been playing this since last year June. I know a thing or 2 about heavies and what that used to be, and the joke it is now. I take great offense to people calling the HMG "fine". Know why? Because I invested a huge chunk of my 21 million SP into the class, and i've seen how weak it is while playing against good players. Then when I switch to my other class, my "weaker" class because I have less SP invested into it, i do better. Please, I mean no offense, and it's nothing personal, but take your public game experience elsewhere. This thread is about making the HMG better, not leaving it alone because in your limited experience it's "fine" Fair enough, point taken. But buffing the HMG could potentially make it OP in pub matches and we will have tons of QQ threads. If I can go 24/2 with an advanced HMG and standard heavy suit, no skills in prof or complex dam mods added then it would be the new FOTM if we are not careful with the buff. This score is not unusual in the pub matches I participate in and I am by no means good at FPS, maybe slightly above average. And we are also waiting for additional heavy weapons, others will probably be added that will cover the mid to long range and the HMG stay as a short range weapon. It might be that I mostly meet new players, the matchmaking works in mysterious ways. But most players are running in pubs and I would not like to have new players turned away when an ungodly heavy hmg runs around destroying all mililtia suits with easy. It is bad enough to see proto squads smashing the opposing team, most experienced players quickly leave these matches not to get their kdr messed up and only the unskilled and new players are left for the proto squad to toy with.
Acturus Galaxy Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2013.10.16 10:58:00 - [5] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Acturus Galaxy wrote: The HMG dps is fine, the suit using it cannot compete with quick proto shield tanked suits. lol... you mean potential DPS. The numbers you watch is based on every single bullet hitting, which is a range of about 0-2m. After that bullet spread lowers DPS the further away the target is. Even with every bullet hitting, you're only dealing 25% more damage than an Assault Rifle user within optimal. Really, everything can out DPS the HMG. Then please explain how it is that I consistently can win 1v1 in cqc vs AR users. I am big and slow and should be easy to hit with the aim assist and yet I win most of these encounters. I can keep the button pressed and shooting for far longer time than the AR player have to reload and switch weapon unless it is a logi with no sidearm.
Acturus Galaxy Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2013.10.16 12:00:00 - [6] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Acturus Galaxy wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Acturus Galaxy wrote: The HMG dps is fine, the suit using it cannot compete with quick proto shield tanked suits. lol... you mean potential DPS. The numbers you watch is based on every single bullet hitting, which is a range of about 0-2m. After that bullet spread lowers DPS the further away the target is. Even with every bullet hitting, you're only dealing 25% more damage than an Assault Rifle user within optimal. Really, everything can out DPS the HMG. Then please explain how it is that I consistently can win 1v1 in cqc vs AR users. I am big and slow and should be easy to hit with the aim assist and yet I win most of these encounters. I can keep the button pressed and shooting for far longer time than the AR player have to reload and switch weapon unless it is a logi with no sidearm. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but there's this little thing called math. You can calculate the DPS and compare them yourself. Go ahead. Also, how much health do you have compared to your opponent? In CQC, you should be doing about the same damage or slightly less after inaccuracy. As long as you're both holding your cursors over each other, you'll win because of higher HP if the AR doesn't headshot. Let me remind you that the AR can headshot and do 50% more damage, instantly making it far more damaging to you even IF you land every single bullet. Good luck getting headshots with your HMG. I kill Heavies all the time with a Standard Logi fit and Standard SMG. They have twice my health almost and a HMG, yet I kill them by hopping like an idiot and headshotting them. Keep in mind this is about the gun and not the suit. If you used an Assault Rifle instead of a HMG, you'd probably be just as lethal at CQC and far more lethal at medium range. Hehe, yes, I have been killed by jumping rabbits a few times. But using the mouse usually lets me track players like you even when you are jumping around. I have killed players in advanced gear I would normally consider very skilled in cqc 1v1 with the HMG, as long as you are keeping 1-2 meters distance, any closer and I loose my orientation due to lack of FPS skills and end up spraying wildly around me. Let me explain how I get most of my kills as a heavy. I stay defending staircases or doorways, shooting as they enter. My crosshair is already on the target as they enter the doorway while they have to spend a second locating me and moving their aim to me unless they are very skilled at FPS. Most back off or if in militia suits dies before returning the fire. I can keep shooting for a long time, use ADS and most suits goes down quickly. It is another situation you describe where we jump each other, I try to avoid these situations unless I have 1-2 team mates behind me. Sometimes I just functions as a moveable barrier for team mates, being the first to enter a doorway, shoot a little and moving back to cover. My team mates move forward at the same time, using me as cover while shooting at the red dots inside the doorway. Sometimes our team succeed in getting the defending group to back away. I hate skilled FPS players like you there is no arguing that a skilled AR FPS player is deadly in most situations and is experienced enough to know when to back off, being to fast to catch for a heavy.