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Tupni
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Public Disorder.
40
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Posted - 2013.10.13 19:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Saw a thread, but then thought this'll be better off with its own. Here's the idea,
When newer players realize there's no way they're ever going to catch up to 10+ million SP plus players it's kind of daunting right? Sure there are plenty of people in their own skill range to play with/against, but when you reach the pinnacle of gameplay, PC v. PC, they are instantly and forever marginalized. Sure, if they pay and play long enough, and can outlast the upper crust of players, maybe they'll be able to pull ahead, but that's a very long term dismal hope. Factor in that the strongest players are often the most involved and invested, and you realize it's even more dismal.
So the thought was, why not limit SP growth of people with more SP?
In reality the more you learn the less there is know, you don't get the same levels of growth you did when you were younger. Not to mention, the more you know the more you need to dedicate to review to keep the knowledge you've attained. So why not cut a percentage of growth off as a 'Knowledge Maintenance Tax' ? Similar game mechanics already exist on some modules where the more you have the less you get (think damage modifiers), and SP thresholds tend to provide more potential and power than these.
Obviously it'd be a tiered system at different landmarks where the nerf becomes more significant the higher it gets starting at a minimal to a somewhat significant sum then leveling off, cutting off base passive/active skilling with otherwise no effects on implants or even being negated mildly by implants because they're brain implants and why not. Perhaps even providing a new class of implant that negates this nerf, further increasing the cost to stay ahead (professional athletes at the top of their game have to buy the best steroids if they want to stay there you know?).
That said, part two of this idea follows,
When more experienced players play for public contracts, shouldn't they get paid more? Regardless of the other idea this makes sense. It's the same in any sport or real mercenary/militia for hire, you're more skilled, you have better equipment, you get paid more because your time is more valuable. Obviously it's also about how well you do your job, but even when a newbie and a vet do the same amount of work the vet gets paid more; that's standard. So as an appeasement to veteran players facing these nerfs to SP, they'd be buffed significantly in ISK by these thresholds, stabilizing their proto-tier level of gameplay in terms of currency, and giving them a greater modifier to power than what more than their skills could do anyway.
Anyway, just throwing it out there. |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1970
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 19:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
F*ck that noise. |
Tupni
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Public Disorder.
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 19:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Another thought is, relative to the ISK idea, what if veteran players were rewarded by public matches with a small amount of aurum? Tax free of course. Throw in a weekly cap sure, but as I implied before, the best players put/have put in the most money right? And I'm talking less than a thousand a week or so, or whatever seems about right. It'd be a bit like the plex(?) system on EVE where if you play/are significant enough you are essentially paid.
Then it would also subsidize the cost of implants which would smooth things over. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
522
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 19:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bad idea ... the grind is bad enough in the early stages ... you want to make it even harder to grind the level 5s of some 7x and even higher skills that already require well over a million sp.
Progression is already slowed by the multipliers of the skills that max out your specialisation ... so you can diversify or grind to max out your speciality. |
Tupni
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Public Disorder.
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 19:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:Bad idea ... the grind is bad enough in the early stages ... you want to make it even harder to grind the level 5s of some 7x and even higher skills that already require well over a million sp.
Progression is already slowed by the multipliers of the skills that max out your specialisation ... so you can diversify or grind to max out your speciality.
My thought was that the first 7 million or more SP would be unhindered, and that when you know what you're doing that gives you a pretty decent foundation, even racial proto-tiers with proto- slots/equipment/one weapon. It'd be more a limiter on additional specializations, and that it shouldn't really hurt too much until you're into the 20 millions to prevent omni-proto gods that will as soon run you down on their >9000 HP tank as snipe your heel for 1000 damage as run around at 50 KPM with a scan profile of 1 in a heavy suit.
Also, experienced proto-gear users tend to die less and kill more, giving them a natural boost to grinding. And the aim is to balance out New players v. Old players, whereas the current progression multipliers affect everyone equally, this system would augment that with a bias to more skilled/older characters, not early stage characters. |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
Beyond Hypothetical Box
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
I play EVE Online for some time now, my character have 154kk SP, and even though it is a big number there are things that I simply can not do with me character, because I have none invested skill points in it .
Real advantage over other players gives you skilling the new content rather than having 'big number' of skill points that have no real meaning. CCP does not make games with items that give players ultimate advantage. No space for 'ThunderHammer+20' here, you need to think how to surprise your enemy to kill him - if you gone meet Pro Minmatar Scout on battlefield don't try to engage him with Heavy Shotgun fit, but with Laser Rifle at your weapon Optimal Range.
Looking at content of this game I can clearly tell that new players will have a lot of opportunity in next a few years to become better players than those who play it now. All they need to do is to be clever at developing they characters. |
Patrick57
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
617
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Then all the vets will leave for lack of SP to be able to do anything, then the noobs will take over, eventually become the vets themselves, and then when all the NEW nnobs come, there will still be a gap between them and the new vets, and then eventually those vets will quit (if the game lasts that long) and the cycle will repeat itself.
^May be a little confusing :D |
Tupni
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Public Disorder.
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
To clarify a bit, I'm going to throw up some numbers,
0 - 9,000,00 SP: 0% loss in base SP accrual
9 Mil - 15 Mil: -2%
15 Mil - 25 Mil: -4%
25 Mil - ???: -6%
I'm not talking at 10 million SP you lose 20% of your growth, anything over 15% starts to get to be a little much, by my tastes anyway. It's supposed to be just another little something to curb the overwhelming advantage of stronger characters not a massive game-changer.
Also, ISK rewards would be at least double if not fives times this on the same thresholds, and Aurum rewards starting at 9 million and growing by the same thresholds again. |
Waruiko DUST
G I A N T
EoN.
128
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Posted - 2013.10.13 20:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
People who ***** about the skill gap and say that new players CAN'T [key word there] keep up don't understand the skill system. YES there are problems with the new player experience but this has more to do with new players spending SP unwisely and just not being used to how the game plays in general.
Understanding the flow of battle and how to read whats going on around you will come with time and only with time.
Spending SP wisely can be partially fixed though. New players are likely to dump skills into weapons, suits, and gear that too focused for someone who can't read the battlefield to use. Making that mistake IS part of the learning experience so it should be preserved too.
New players should start with about 200k SP in skills that naturally complement that races starter fit suits in addition to the 500k they already get for free.
If you combined that with better fit starter suits you'll have more effective newbies. |
Tectonic Fusion
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
362
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Waruiko DUST wrote:People who ***** about the skill gap and say that new players CAN'T [key word there] keep up don't understand the skill system. YES there are problems with the new player experience but this has more to do with new players spending SP unwisely and just not being used to how the game plays in general.
Understanding the flow of battle and how to read whats going on around you will come with time and only with time.
Spending SP wisely can be partially fixed though. New players are likely to dump skills into weapons, suits, and gear that too focused for someone who can't read the battlefield to use. Making that mistake IS part of the learning experience so it should be preserved too.
New players should start with about 200k SP in skills that naturally complement that races starter fit suits in addition to the 500k they already get for free.
If you combined that with better fit starter suits you'll have more effective newbies.
I have 10.3 million. Because I was basically an inexperienced newbie at 1.1 of uprising, I have the effect of a perfect skilled 6 million SP player. |
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calvin b
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
709
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
F*** that I worked hard to get to 23+ million and I scraped and clawed my way to where I am. Just grind like everyone else, it took me months to get into the top 1000 players, but I did it and it was all do to hard work and perseverance. That is what is wrong with the world, no one is willing to work for anything these days, all they want is everything given to them. |
Tupni
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Public Disorder.
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
calvin b wrote:F*** that I worked hard to get to 23+ million and I scraped and clawed my way to where I am. Just grind like everyone else, it took me months to get into the top 1000 players, but I did it and it was all do to hard work and perseverance. That is what is wrong with the world, no one is willing to work for anything these days, all they want is everything given to them.
Yes, providing a mild nerf to all players when they reach certain thresholds is basically socialism, this is a communist rally and we hate you damn one percenters with such a passion as to throw more money at your feet. I hope you choke on all the extra ISk and proto/aurum gear the proposal would provide you.
I am butt mad.  |
Tupni
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Public Disorder.
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 21:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oh, here's another thought though, instead of a nerf, the exact inverse of this, a mild buff to SP for low SP characters? It seems like a better idea in that instead of pushing people down from a certain point onward, just giving a temporary buff that erodes with skill growth. Essentially the same thing, but moving things along faster instead of slowing people down.
And is there any input on the ISK/Aurum idea? |
Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
20
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Posted - 2013.10.13 21:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tupni wrote:Oh, here's another thought though, instead of a nerf, the exact inverse of this, a mild buff to SP for low SP characters? It seems like a better idea in that instead of pushing people down from a certain point onward, just giving a temporary buff that erodes with skill growth. Essentially the same thing, but moving things along faster instead of slowing people down.
And is there any input on the ISK/Aurum idea?
I actually posted something like this in another tread, tiered boosts to sp gain, the fresher you are, the higher your potential to earn. Of course vets will **** on this idea too because they want to be on the pinnacle all by themselves. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 21:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
I ignored the AUR part to begin with, but since you seem to want to push it still ... that's just not going to happen ... the whole point of AUR is for real money purchases ... they will never give it away, save for some tourney prizes or something like, where they might give away graphics cards in Eve or PLEXs etc. ... giving it to everyone, just for being a vet is not going to happen.
The percentages you suggest would make zero impact on anything ... not on closing the gap for players under 10 mil sp ... nor on the 25+ mil sp vets seeing any kind of loss in sp gain. I agree entirely with your point that anything over 15% "starts to get to be a little much" ... but it's only at that point that you'd start to see any difference made bridging the gap ... even then your 1 mil sp noob would have to play considerably more than your 10 mil character ... lets say they both play enough to earn 8 mil sp ... your noob is now on 9 mil and your 10 mil loses 15% so he's up to 17 mil !! ... they'd be on 65 mil by the time the noob caught up !
The way to catch up is to play ... luckily for you this isn't Eve where there is no way to catch up.
And finally your idea to increase isk payouts just counteracts everything you're trying to do with the other stuff ... you want to pay me up to 5 times the isk ... damn I wish ! ... if I earnt twice the isk I could run solo full time proto n I'm not that good ... the good vets don't need isk. I know for a fact if they increased isk payouts there'd be more proto in pubs ... cos I'd be one of them.
The way to solve the perceived problem is to get matchmaking sorted out properly so that a full squad with an average sp of 15 mil get's matched into a game against another full squad with a similar average sp ... or a squad of 3 gets paired with another squad of 3 and matched against a squad of 5 with similar average sp, or a squad of 6 with slightly less average (since co-ordination counts for a bit). And the rest of the teams are all balanced within about 3-5 mil sp either side of the 15 mil average we're talking about.
The problem is the playerbase isn't big enough for the variety in matches we've got and the variety in specialisations also effects the balance ... and we haven't taken into account individual player skill yet, so maybe 'win-streaks' or win/loss ratio could be taken into consideration so that those who regularly win don't all get heaped on the same side against those that don't put any effort in and regularly lose all thrown in on the opposite side.
On top of that, PVE as a place for noobs to gain sp outside of PVP combat and a more interesting PC system for vets to put their time and effort into would again reduce the impact of a single leet squad in proto gear stomping a team of noobs.
Your idea is just an artificial leash which is simply the wrong way to go about it. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 22:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:Tupni wrote:Oh, here's another thought though, instead of a nerf, the exact inverse of this, a mild buff to SP for low SP characters? It seems like a better idea in that instead of pushing people down from a certain point onward, just giving a temporary buff that erodes with skill growth. Essentially the same thing, but moving things along faster instead of slowing people down.
And is there any input on the ISK/Aurum idea? I actually posted something like this in another tread, tiered boosts to sp gain, the fresher you are, the higher your potential to earn. Of course vets will **** on this idea too because they want to be on the pinnacle all by themselves.
Why should you get an advanced assault rifle (for example) by putting in less time and effort than someone who's been playing the game longer had to put in ?
Edit : or even WOULD have to put in if they haven't skilled it yet !
Edit 2 : there would be no diversification ... when you could just make an alt character and use the 'boosted' gain to skill something different, quicker than you could on your main. |
Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster
357
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 22:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
At some point (probably around 12 million sp for an assault) the vet isn't really improving his main foot but is building a second. A vet's only sp induced advantage at this point is versatility. Still if ccp was tip implement some sort of catch up I would rather see quick Hatton pod early sp rather than merging vet gain. |
Dexter307
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
443
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 23:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
How about no |
calvin b
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
710
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 23:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ok so lets throw something out there. What about other games like WOW, EVE, or any other online game you expect those players to be nerfed so newer players could catch up, that is not going to happen. What we need is PVE and balanced matches. Guys I agree that a newer player should not be playing against a vet. I have played matches were both sides were new players and for some reason I was the only vet. The outcome was I had 20+ kills and maybe a few deaths with double to triple WP than anyone on my team or the other. Did I feel like I accomplished anything, no I felt terrible mowing down one person after another. Why, because I was not a better player per say, it was because I had better gear and that made it to easy. I wanted a challenge myself, but at the same time I do not want to get stuck on a newberry team and have to face a proto team and be red lined. I want fair and balanced play for all, but at the current time I do not see this being a reality do to poor match making and low player count.
I promise to not proto stomp a new player. I will only use proto gear in PC or FW, unless someone pulls it on me and then its on. We do need another triple SP for players under 5 million for one month, with boosters you would gain close to a million a week. This event would help close the gap for new players in my opinion. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 23:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
calvin b wrote:We do need another triple SP for players under 5 million for one month, with boosters you would gain close to a million a week. This event would help close the gap for new players in my opinion.
I wouldn't object to something like that ... if it was a short term event ... not a permanent thing like the OP suggests.
Anyone under say 10 mil sp could get a step up on the ladder and vets could get a boost to an alt character or something ... it could be an interesting week seeing the vets all running with their lower skilled alts ! |
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