DUST Search - Trade the Asault equpment slot for a slayer bonus?

Skihids wrote:

TBH I'm not especially thrilled with the idea, I'm just thinking out loud about this problem. We've got some vocal posters who complain about Logistics earaning more rewards than the killers who assert that they can run around self sufficient with thier one equipment slot.

To a degree they are right. A squad of six assaults would have the maximum killing power and only two fewer equipment slots than if they traded an assault for a logi. Are those two equipment slots really worth it? Should they make the tradeoff?

Pulling the assault's equipment slot would definately make the logi required, but it's rather drastic.

CCP made some noises about logis getting an equipment bonus that actually increased the power or efficiency of the equipment they carry. If that bonus was large enough it might be enough incdentive to have a dedicate logi.

I think that would have to be combined with a greater need for tactical/strategic equipment though. A big part of the problem is today's game modes basically boil down to TDM and all you really need for that is a gun.

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Skihids Bullet Cluster 2263	Posted - 2013.10.12 00:56:00 - [1] - Quote One of our more vocal posters made a point that the Logi can be reduant when there are six Assault players with six equipment slots between them. Did CCP mean for squads of six to be self sufficient without a dedicated Logi? Is there a need for dedicated Logis in the game? One would assume CCP meant Logis to have a place on the battlefiled and for the Logi to be differentiated from the Asault/Slayer role. So how could that be accomplished? One way would be to eliminate the overlap between the two roles. You could pull the equipment slot from the Assault player and gave him extra defense or offense in return. It makes game sense in that the Assault shouldn't sacrifice his ability to slay to carry a full crate of ammo or a bulky repair tool. Eliminating the overlap of Assault onto the Logi's territory would return the Logi to relevance. Adding a defensive or offensive bonus to offest the loss would further shift the Assault player away from support.
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 405	Posted - 2013.10.12 00:57:00 - [2] - Quote Whats this slayer term being whipped out all of a sudden, its as if the matari actually made something decent.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2090	Posted - 2013.10.12 01:01:00 - [3] - Quote Sure, get rid of scout equipment slots while you are at it since the same applies to them If you cant tell Im being sarcastic, leave their **** alone
Skihids Bullet Cluster 2263	Posted - 2013.10.12 01:09:00 - [4] - Quote I was happy with the status quo, but apparently some are upset that Logis can equal the Assault in WP's when the Assault player can run around completely self sufficient. I'm just looking for a solution to their crisis that leaves the Logi as a valid role.
Zatara Rought TeamPlayers EoN. 1291	Posted - 2013.10.12 01:11:00 - [5] - Quote Skihids wrote: One of our more vocal posters made a point that the Logi can be reduant when there are six Assault players with six equipment slots between them. Did CCP mean for squads of six to be self sufficient without a dedicated Logi? Is there a need for dedicated Logis in the game? One would assume CCP meant Logis to have a place on the battlefiled and for the Logi to be differentiated from the Asault/Slayer role. So how could that be accomplished? One way would be to eliminate the overlap between the two roles. You could pull the equipment slot from the Assault player and gave him extra defense or offense in return. It makes game sense in that the Assault shouldn't sacrifice his ability to slay to carry a full crate of ammo or a bulky repair tool. Eliminating the overlap of Assault onto the Logi's territory would return the Logi to relevance. Adding a defensive or offensive bonus to offest the loss would further shift the Assault player away from support. If you do this then you need to take away light weapons from logi's so I don't do this: Zatara Rought wrote: Ambush Ammer FW PC e-peen
Aria Gomes DUST CORE DARKSTAR ARMY 67	Posted - 2013.10.12 01:14:00 - [6] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: Whats this slayer term being whipped out all of a sudden, its as if the matari actually made something decent. I'm no Buffy. I personally detest the word. And I like my equipment slot. I'd be pissed if my equip slot magically disappeared. I got all those pockets on my Minnie Assault for a reason.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1764	Posted - 2013.10.12 01:21:00 - [7] - Quote I think the only way something like this would be viable is if the basic frame suits had customisable slot layouts. It'd give us a reason to have those suits, and they wouldn't be simply inferior versions of other suits anymore. -1 eq slot for +1 high slot? Slayer bonus.
SickJ sephiroth clones D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 100	Posted - 2013.10.12 01:26:00 - [8] - Quote Skihids wrote: One of our more vocal posters made a point that the Logi can be redundant when there are six Assault players with six equipment slots between them. ... You're ignoring the fact that the six Assault players have twelve weapon slots between them. That's eleven redundant weapons. Is there really a need for so many dedicated Assaults in this game? /s There's a need for dedicated logis because redundancy is a good thing.
Mr Machine Guns Nyain San EoN. 5	Posted - 2013.10.12 01:39:00 - [9] - Quote by this person logic a logi should not have a weapon at all because they are taking away from the assault job when they kill a person and when they shoot at people its taking away from the logis real job out there too
Justice Prevails Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 32	Posted - 2013.10.12 07:35:00 - [10] - Quote I am an assault. When I was with my old corp, I asked our logi what he wanted me to equip. He said he preferred I carried an injector so in case he went down I could revive him. Those guys lose more isk because of all the equipment they carry for us. I would like to keep the slot for when I join a corp again or squad up.

Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 800	Posted - 2013.10.12 07:38:00 - [11] - Quote Why use a squad of 6 assaults when you can have 6 logi's?
LT SHANKS Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 612	Posted - 2013.10.12 08:23:00 - [12] - Quote -1 Equip Slot +80 Shields +80 Armor +0.5 Sprint Speed Something like that?
JL3Eleven PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 989	Posted - 2013.10.12 08:37:00 - [13] - Quote My logi suit can have: 1018 HP (500+ shield/ 500+ armor) Proto AR Proto Nades a nanohive 2 complex damage mods 3 complex shield extenders and I belive one each of the complex armor mods My assault suit can never do that. Just saying.
Banning Hammer Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 1719	Posted - 2013.10.12 08:44:00 - [14] - Quote Just give me ONE good reason why we need to do that. - Assaults have one equipment Slots for self-sufficiency in battle, Extra ammo, Scanner, Repairing, Reviving, AND SO ON. - Logis sacrifice combat efficiency for more equipment Slots to provided support in the Battlefield, but the also carry ONE weapon for self-defense and providing covering fire. This idea is as stupid as the one about removing all weapon from the Logistic Class.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 150	Posted - 2013.10.12 09:26:00 - [15] - Quote I don't agree with the OPs suggestion, but this discussion raises two valid problems that need fixing: 1. There is next to no equipment that encances the killing potential of an assault player. Since logis are not the only drop suits allowed to cary equipment, why is every piece of equipment centered around some ligistical role regardless? Except for explosives maybe. Assaults can chose between nano hive and needle (both tools of a support role), everything else is taken care of by your dedicated logi. Why is there no equipment that increases the number of greneades you can carry? Why no active modules that increase damage output, damage resistance or speed for a few seconds? Why no equivalent of an underslung grenade launcher that lets you fire a limited number of grenades or shotgun shells? Anti personnel mines? 2. Basic medium frames are redundant because assault suits have the exact same slot layout. I don't think removing equipment for assaults altogether is a solution here. But to me it would make sense if the assault slot layout focused more on killing, while the basic frame seved as a hybrid between assault and logistics.
OZAROW WarRavens League of Infamy 811	Posted - 2013.10.12 11:56:00 - [16] - Quote In chrome any real assault player had a 80% needle an they constantly picked each other up as the heavy laid cover fire an the logi was in the back guarding the heavy, hurt assaults ran to the back to keep the logi in the center an cover him as he healed. Not many people use needles an assaults use healing hives, so lose ur equipment, but what u gonna do when the snipers kill a logi or two( hulk hogan ref lol)!
Zatara Rought TeamPlayers EoN. 1294	Posted - 2013.10.12 12:40:00 - [17] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: My logi suit can have: 1018 HP (500+ shield/ 500+ armor) Proto AR Proto Nades a nanohive 2 complex damage mods 3 complex shield extenders and I belive one each of the complex armor mods My assault suit can never do that. Just saying. Wait what? You use a complex ferroscale, a complex reactive, and a complex plate? what's the 4th low slot? And I detailed elsewhere my caldari assault can get 930 ehp but retain a sidearm, which i see beating you. xD And you're a bit slower as well. But you do get 7rep/s with the complex reactive. But yeah I get shields back quicker as well. On second thought...I doubt you get 500 shields with only 3 complex shield extenders. Highly. 225 base shields (including shield upgrades 5) plus 72 for each sheild extender. 3x72 = 216 216+225 = 441. Not quite 500. I'm guessing you were off a bit on the armor side as well at a complex plate plus a reactive plus a ferroscale is only gonna be about....150+90+70 =330 i'm guessing along with your base which probably isn't 170. Overall...yeah I'm down to hear more J3
Keri Starlight Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 755	Posted - 2013.10.12 12:56:00 - [18] - Quote Skihids wrote: One of our more vocal posters made a point that the Logi can be reduant when there are six Assault players with six equipment slots between them. Did CCP mean for squads of six to be self sufficient without a dedicated Logi? Is there a need for dedicated Logis in the game? One would assume CCP meant Logis to have a place on the battlefiled and for the Logi to be differentiated from the Asault/Slayer role. So how could that be accomplished? One way would be to eliminate the overlap between the two roles. You could pull the equipment slot from the Assault player and gave him extra defense or offense in return. It makes game sense in that the Assault shouldn't sacrifice his ability to slay to carry a full crate of ammo or a bulky repair tool. Eliminating the overlap of Assault onto the Logi's territory would return the Logi to relevance. Adding a defensive or offensive bonus to offest the loss would further shift the Assault player away from support. http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/templates/14288.jpg
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation 440	Posted - 2013.10.12 13:16:00 - [19] - Quote I think the problem isn't that assaults and scouts have equipment slots, it's that the only things to put in them right now are team support tools that a logi would carry. If there were other tools, such as electronic warfare devices or items that provide a temporary personal buff, assaults would be less likely to step on a logi's toes. Alternatively, there's an idea I had a few days ago for how to implement the EVE style fitting with a theoretical max of 8 hi, 8 mid, 8 low. It's not really well fleshed out, but here's what little I've come up with. Basically, make weapon hardpoints like in EVE. In eve a ship may have five turret hardpoints and six high slots. I propose something like that for us. Let's imagine an assault suit with that layout. I see two ways this could be handled: The assault is given five light weapon hardpoints. They use this to equip five copies of the same light weapon. This doesn't mean they have five weapons to swap between, rather the weapons scale in strength as more are added. With five of them equipped said assault has 5x the normal base damage (which would naturally be reduced dramatically). If there is a sixth high with no hardpoint it may go to equipment, or it may be a sidearm hardpoint which could go to equipment or a sidearm. Different way to handle it: keep the weapons the way they are, but make your ammunition cache a high slot item. Thus any open high slots can go to either ammo, or equipment. Assaults will want a nice big ammo supply, but logis won't need it and will equip lots of gear.
UnknowingTea Consolidated Intelligence 21	Posted - 2013.10.12 13:39:00 - [20] - Quote This is an interesting thread. You could probably cover all your bases with 6 assaults, but you would need to coordinate ahead of time (not really a problem), and you would lose some flexibility and survivability (this may be a problem). For a squad of assaults, you only really need injectors, hives, and scanners. You would probably all fit armor reppers on your suits so you don't need to bring active reppers (or repping hives). I would bring two of each so your squad can split into two teams if desired. This would be a pretty powerful team, but there are some drawbacks: Not many injectors -- what if the guys with the injectors get killed first? In a squad with logis, most/all of the assault suits should carry injectors, so you would have more. No heavies. If you want even one heavy in your squad, you will probably want to bring reppers, and splitting into teams is going to be more risky. Of course, if you want a heavy, you could just bring one logi to support him. No uplinks. Probably not as much as a problem since the six assaults should be able to get a spawn point by sticking together and taking an objective or CRU. Or someone could carry uplinks temporarily, but you lose some options by not having uplinks with you all the time. Another option is one squad member carries uplinks all the time, but then you can't split into two teams (with complete equipment). All in all, the squad of assaults would be self-sufficient (which is fine) and strong, but it doesn't make logis obsolete. For a very simple arguments, just compare the strength of a squad with 6 assaults to that of a squad with 4 assaults, one logi, and one heavy. So I think everything is fine as it is.

UnknowingTea Consolidated Intelligence 21	Posted - 2013.10.12 13:48:00 - [21] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: I don't agree with the OPs suggestion, but this discussion raises two valid problems that need fixing: Why is there no equipment that increases the number of greneades you can carry? Why no active modules that increase damage output, damage resistance or speed for a few seconds? Why no equivalent of an underslung grenade launcher that lets you fire a limited number of grenades or shotgun shells? Anti personnel mines? This is a really neat idea, and it would give the assault guys more options and allow for more specialization in a squad. I can envision being in a squad where we choose the one or two guys with the best gun game and give them equipment to enhance their slaying power. Then the rest of the squad supports them and rounds out the equipment. This would also address the OPs concern about logi relevance, since this specialization would make a squad stronger and requires a logi to cover the necessary equipment roles. But this would need to be balanced carefully so logis don't turn into all-powerful killing machines by stacking slayer-enhancing equipment. Probably the safest thing to have is survival-enhancing equipment (e.g. active shield hardeners). This would help the dedicated slayers as well as the logis who are just trying to stay alive to support their squad.
Skihids Bullet Cluster 2267	Posted - 2013.10.12 19:24:00 - [22] - Quote TBH I'm not especially thrilled with the idea, I'm just thinking out loud about this problem. We've got some vocal posters who complain about Logistics earaning more rewards than the killers who assert that they can run around self sufficient with thier one equipment slot. To a degree they are right. A squad of six assaults would have the maximum killing power and only two fewer equipment slots than if they traded an assault for a logi. Are those two equipment slots really worth it? Should they make the tradeoff? Pulling the assault's equipment slot would definately make the logi required, but it's rather drastic. CCP made some noises about logis getting an equipment bonus that actually increased the power or efficiency of the equipment they carry. If that bonus was large enough it might be enough incdentive to have a dedicate logi. I think that would have to be combined with a greater need for tactical/strategic equipment though. A big part of the problem is today's game modes basically boil down to TDM and all you really need for that is a gun.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1141	Posted - 2013.10.12 19:38:00 - [23] - Quote Skihids wrote: TBH I'm not especially thrilled with the idea, I'm just thinking out loud about this problem. We've got some vocal posters who complain about Logistics earaning more rewards than the killers who assert that they can run around self sufficient with thier one equipment slot. To a degree they are right. A squad of six assaults would have the maximum killing power and only two fewer equipment slots than if they traded an assault for a logi. Are those two equipment slots really worth it? Should they make the tradeoff? Pulling the assault's equipment slot would definately make the logi required, but it's rather drastic. CCP made some noises about logis getting an equipment bonus that actually increased the power or efficiency of the equipment they carry. If that bonus was large enough it might be enough incdentive to have a dedicate logi. I think that would have to be combined with a greater need for tactical/strategic equipment though. A big part of the problem is today's game modes basically boil down to TDM and all you really need for that is a gun. I'm not actually sure why you're using a squad of 6 Assaults as an example. Who would run such a squad, be it pub or PC? Imagining that the game was at least fairly balanced a squad would look more like: 1 HAV. 1 Assault. 1 Logi. 1 Heavy. 1 Scout. 1 joker that could be anything from another Assault to a dedicated LAV or Dropship. In such a situation a Logi would be extremely useful as you would only have 3-4 equipment slots total in your squad if you swapped him for another Assault or Scout. With a Logi you instead get 5-7 equipment slots.


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