DUST Search - AV / V logical balance.

Shouper of BHD wrote:

Spkr4theDead wrote:

Shouper of BHD wrote:

Spkr4theDead wrote:

Shouper of BHD wrote:

the way most V (vehicles users) see balance is by not dieing by having PRO be super resilient, this is wrong. The only way for there to be a true balance is by dieing more at a affordable cost.

That doesn't fix the problem of AV being far more effective against a tank than another tank is. The best counter to a tank should be another tank.

I had a statement for that in the OP, small turrets and heavy weapons should be on par, while large turrets should be 1 of the best weapons there are, anything beyond would be an orbital, or special installation that a commando calls down stuff like that.

Heavy weapons? The swarm isn't a heavy weapon. I feel it should be though. It's an anti-tank weapon. You're basically asking AV to take a huge, gigantic nerf.

While we're at it, can AV grenades take a nerf too?

swarms as a light fire and forget weapon thats an AA and a AT weapon needs a damage nerf.

AV nades as a hand held weapon exclusive to ground vehicle arn`t to bad considering the range.

I never said heavy weapons be as good as small turrets, i said small turrets should be as good as heavy weapons. AKA small turrets get buffed, not heavy weapons get nerfed.

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Shouper of BHD Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 289	Posted - 2013.10.10 17:18:00 - [1] - Quote the way most V (vehicles users) see balance is by not dieing by having PRO be super resilient, this is wrong. The only way for there to be a true balance is by dieing more at a affordable cost. vehicles MUST be affordable in order to be a role but they must die so AV is a role as well, there can`t be oppressive AV like its been for a while and there can`t be stone chest vehicles. If vehicle users can die in battle several times without loosing ISK at the hands of AV then both roles can be profitable, AV gains there rewards while vehicles although not to strong (but strong enough) get there objectives done will in turn be affordable and reward able. words saying what directions we need to go though means nothing so here is where it would need to start to get there. small turrets need to be as good as heavy weapons, in order for gunships, ADS and gurrilla tactic-ked LAVs to be able to do there job vehicles must have a reasonably strong arm to weild. since they aren`t to strong though it allows a balance by: limited power, and AV and vehicles being able to both get there job done. large turrets need to be stronger then heavy weapons and small turrets, they must be one of the strongest weapons there are in order for a tank to be a tank (HP wise will be mentioned later) they must be able to take down other vehicles and squads. the following is only considering vehicle loss and not infantry suits and gear loss. modules and turrets are the same meta as the vehicle`s listed meta. the max loss that will be listed goes to the highest of losses without going over the battle budget so if you loose the amount of vehicles as listed you shouldn`t gain anything from the battle but there isn`t more loss then gain in the same case. Light STD vehicles should be able to be lossed up to 10 times, ADV = 8, PRO = 6 times. STD is meant for squad or personal transport but shouldn`t be resilient enough to take much hits from AV so the cost should be nearly careless. ADV should be more resilient for those who don`t want to be driving a pile of firewood, PRO being for those who want to do gorilla tactics. medium STD vehicles should be able to be lossed 5 times, ADV 4 times and PRO 3 times. medium vehicles inclueding DS and the planned MAV are support vehicles and should be more resilient then LAVs in many ways but are limited due to there weapons in use as good as the LAVs, this will keep them on a leash if you will by allowing them to be true supportive vehicle since they can take damage, provide little attack help but can keep units spawning, supplied with ammo, sonar etc. it also allows the ADS to be supportive, ADS have less HP but there mobility makes up for that, making them a hit and run and since the small turrets are effective enough it wouldn`t be hard to sweep a small area for short moments of battle but it would leave them at the will of a AV user if they stay for to long since they have less HP, so in conclusion ADS will be a pain but truly limited if your geared accordingly. heavy STD vehicles should be affordable 3 times, ADV 2 times and PRO only 1 time, the reasons for the low numbers is because tanks are more of a resilient vehicle then any other, it should take heavy weapons at a math able meta lv to take one down, so tanks must be hard enough to take down since they are the bull dozer to a defensive line, but if that line is well prepared for that tank then it would be very costly to try again depending on the meta. something to be mention is there being no medium turrets are very good for this balance but the lack of medium modules makes it a bit hard for DS and one day MAVs to be resilient enough to be supportive, it also makes Caldari vs gallante balance as well as all around balance for them hard since they use LAV / LAA gear, neglecting medium turrets is is highly advised at least for a year but medium turrets will need to make there way in.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3760	Posted - 2013.10.10 17:23:00 - [2] - Quote I would much, much rather see cheaper tanks than god tanks. It'd lead to a lot more tank battles and epic fights Small turrets being as good as heavy weapons... how would you feel about small railguns being mini forge guns?
Shouper of BHD Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 289	Posted - 2013.10.10 17:38:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I would much, much rather see cheaper tanks than god tanks. It'd lead to a lot more tank battles and epic fights Small turrets being as good as heavy weapons... how would you feel about small rail guns being mini forge guns? breach vs compressed: the compressed has a much MUCH higher fire rate then the breach, since the compressed has the highest damage the compressed has limited shots to fire, its accuracy is less then a FG. the platform has more mobility but feild of view challenges that imbalance. the other small rail guns should be like the assault in RoF but in my view AFG do to much damage for their RoF, so the other rail guns won`t be as strong since I also see small turrets to heavy weapons balance as much as I see breach forgun to assault FG balance, I would not support my claim without informing CCP before or after the action that the AFG needs to die down its damage and a slight bit of its accuracy (AFG are infantry powners). also they both are limited ammo but the rail guns over heat, FG have a better specialisation. also to mentioned that small rail guns do not move slower then FG like the large rail guns and also have a turret turn speed skill, i am guessing small turrets will turn slower in the upcoming build (1.6). as for the blasters, imagine the old AR being place holders for the other racial ARs. for blasters comprresed is Ammar, stabilized is caldari, scattered is caldari and normal is gallante, if the scattered is then compared to the HMG (Minimatar heavy weapon) then its easier to balance out since the blasters fire faster and have small Mags/ clips 9blasters have skills/ modules for that) but the same ammo count (I think), they have better range / dispersion (but HMG has a skill for that, as well as other skills to better suit them) but they are both infantry weapons of destruction.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 991	Posted - 2013.10.10 17:55:00 - [4] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: the way most V (vehicles users) see balance is by not dieing by having PRO be super resilient, this is wrong. The only way for there to be a true balance is by dieing more at a affordable cost. That doesn't fix the problem of AV being far more effective against a tank than another tank is. The best counter to a tank should be another tank.
Shouper of BHD Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 289	Posted - 2013.10.10 17:57:00 - [5] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: the way most V (vehicles users) see balance is by not dieing by having PRO be super resilient, this is wrong. The only way for there to be a true balance is by dieing more at a affordable cost. That doesn't fix the problem of AV being far more effective against a tank than another tank is. The best counter to a tank should be another tank. I had a statement for that in the OP, small turrets and heavy weapons should be on par, while large turrets should be 1 of the best weapons there are, anything beyond would be an orbital, or special installation that a commando calls down stuff like that.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 991	Posted - 2013.10.10 18:03:00 - [6] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: the way most V (vehicles users) see balance is by not dieing by having PRO be super resilient, this is wrong. The only way for there to be a true balance is by dieing more at a affordable cost. That doesn't fix the problem of AV being far more effective against a tank than another tank is. The best counter to a tank should be another tank. I had a statement for that in the OP, small turrets and heavy weapons should be on par, while large turrets should be 1 of the best weapons there are, anything beyond would be an orbital, or special installation that a commando calls down stuff like that. Heavy weapons? The swarm isn't a heavy weapon. I feel it should be though. It's an anti-tank weapon. You're basically asking AV to take a huge, gigantic nerf. While we're at it, can AV grenades take a nerf too?
Shouper of BHD Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 289	Posted - 2013.10.10 18:08:00 - [7] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: the way most V (vehicles users) see balance is by not dieing by having PRO be super resilient, this is wrong. The only way for there to be a true balance is by dieing more at a affordable cost. That doesn't fix the problem of AV being far more effective against a tank than another tank is. The best counter to a tank should be another tank. I had a statement for that in the OP, small turrets and heavy weapons should be on par, while large turrets should be 1 of the best weapons there are, anything beyond would be an orbital, or special installation that a commando calls down stuff like that. Heavy weapons? The swarm isn't a heavy weapon. I feel it should be though. It's an anti-tank weapon. You're basically asking AV to take a huge, gigantic nerf. While we're at it, can AV grenades take a nerf too? swarms as a light fire and forget weapon thats an AA and a AT weapon needs a damage nerf. AV nades as a hand held weapon exclusive to ground vehicle arn`t to bad considering the range. I never said heavy weapons be as good as small turrets, i said small turrets should be as good as heavy weapons. AKA small turrets get buffed, not heavy weapons get nerfed.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 991	Posted - 2013.10.10 18:21:00 - [8] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: the way most V (vehicles users) see balance is by not dieing by having PRO be super resilient, this is wrong. The only way for there to be a true balance is by dieing more at a affordable cost. That doesn't fix the problem of AV being far more effective against a tank than another tank is. The best counter to a tank should be another tank. I had a statement for that in the OP, small turrets and heavy weapons should be on par, while large turrets should be 1 of the best weapons there are, anything beyond would be an orbital, or special installation that a commando calls down stuff like that. Heavy weapons? The swarm isn't a heavy weapon. I feel it should be though. It's an anti-tank weapon. You're basically asking AV to take a huge, gigantic nerf. While we're at it, can AV grenades take a nerf too? swarms as a light fire and forget weapon thats an AA and a AT weapon needs a damage nerf. AV nades as a hand held weapon exclusive to ground vehicle arn`t to bad considering the range. I never said heavy weapons be as good as small turrets, i said small turrets should be as good as heavy weapons. AKA small turrets get buffed, not heavy weapons get nerfed. But forge guns are already better than large turrets. Are you suggesting small turrets be better than large turrets?
Shouper of BHD Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 289	Posted - 2013.10.10 18:30:00 - [9] - Quote @ Spark for dead`s last comment (couldn`t quote). I was requesting large rail guns be buffed. in the OP I took it as assumed that it was what I was saying but I can see the conversion since i neglected to say it to be buffed directly. all in all yes i do want large turrets buffed, this will allow the tank to show its role colors since it in my post would be reasonably destroyable, HAVs as slow, front-line attack heavy vehicles of course would be the hardested to destroy but the idea between it being affordable even in an all out PRO fit once per battle. this would allow players to PLAY their role while it be where it should be, my 2nd thought is the same thing but PRO takes affordable every other battle but stronger a bit more.


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