DUST Search - [Suggestion] Simulating Mentality

The Black Jackal wrote:

Zat Earthshatter wrote:

A clone soldier has likely been genetically modified to not fear the weapons of the enemy.
The real way to put fear in a clone soldier, is to attack his wallet.

Thus, anything really expensive happening in your field of view - HAV destruction, CRU blown up, objective hack, etc. - may intimidate the merc.
Instead of just firing at a dude, you'd have to destroy his assets to screw up his combat ability. This would look the same as Suppression, but last for a set time. This "debuff", if you will, would be lessened by the merc witnessing something expensive happening to the enemy.

What this creates is a sort of momentum.
As you push your attack on the enemy, they become less effective as the match costs them more ISK. However, they can start to turn it around by incurring losses on you.
This can actually balance against pubstompers, as they would be affected much more quickly by losing Prototype gear than the blueberries are by losing Militia.

In short:
>Mercs don't fear death, they fear bankruptcy
>"Suppression" effects as they witness the ISK cost of war firsthand
>Spoils of war reduce these effects, while also placing them on the enemy.
>Can be governed by line-of-sight, or a simple slider indicating the morale of the opposing teams.

Genetics don't affect mentality. The mind is a real man or woman's mind, put into a standardised clone body. So the mind is as normal-ish as ours.

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The Black Jackal The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 885	Posted - 2013.10.06 05:21:00 - [1] - Quote As players, we lack the capacity in most cases to immerse ourselves in the mentality of a clone soldier, immortal, reviving instantly (or close enough to) after death in a new identical 'stock body'. Something our 'avatar' has likely done hundreds of times, probably thousands. So the mentality of the clone soldier would be something completely different to what the player at that point in time would be feeling. Is it distressing to die? Probably yes. Even if you've done it a thousand times, the pain would still be there, though possibly pushed aside, or moulded into some, strange demented mindset where it's relished. But either way, whether it be this game, or a game like Battlefield, the players themselves do not adopt the mentality of the avatar they are playing. Instead we want the game to do that for us. But how would it work? Battlefield 3 (and 4) have the 'Suppression Effect). This is not something that is real, it's a representation of your avatar's mental state being under fire, which becomes hazy, blurry, and though still able to fight back, have a more difficult time of it, they also move slightly slower, and have dampened senses of hearing and sight. This is an example of 'simulated' Mentality. The player can't actually feel the mental state of the avatar, so the game simulates it, and feeds it to the player. DUST 514 lacks ANY mentality simulation. You get hit by a bullet, you're just as capable of turning around and shooting the guy who shot you, or shot at you, as you were the second before you got shot, or shot at. While the suppressive effect may not be as large considering you KNOW you're immortal and will return, there would still be a hesitancy being under fire. Dying a couple of thousand times would probably make it something you REALLY want to avoid repeating. Players don't have this mentality, and thus the Avatar's continue to act in the same manner as they always do. This lacks immersion, and limits the game. Limits the game? How does it do this you ask? Adding in a suppression mentality allows 'first strikes' to be effective, and allows a well-set ambush to have a major impact, when compared to rushing headlong into each other over an open field. It brings further tactics and strategies into play, and gives more variety in taking objectives. It can also negatively influence your own team as well. If you're standing near a friendly tank that blasts away at hostiles with abandon, your own ability to hear and see will be impacted, so tactical choices of where to position vehicles as well as infantry will come into play. As always, just putting up my thoughts for others to see. Let's keep these discussions open.
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 53	Posted - 2013.10.06 05:47:00 - [2] - Quote Soo.... Long story short, you want a Battlefield style suppression effect when you're shot at?
Zat Earthshatter Ghosts Of Ourselves 368	Posted - 2013.10.06 06:13:00 - [3] - Quote A clone soldier has likely been genetically modified to not fear the weapons of the enemy. The real way to put fear in a clone soldier, is to attack his wallet. Thus, anything really expensive happening in your field of view - HAV destruction, CRU blown up, objective hack, etc. - may intimidate the merc. Instead of just firing at a dude, you'd have to destroy his assets to screw up his combat ability. This would look the same as Suppression, but last for a set time. This "debuff", if you will, would be lessened by the merc witnessing something expensive happening to the enemy. What this creates is a sort of momentum. As you push your attack on the enemy, they become less effective as the match costs them more ISK. However, they can start to turn it around by incurring losses on you. This can actually balance against pubstompers, as they would be affected much more quickly by losing Prototype gear than the blueberries are by losing Militia. In short: >Mercs don't fear death, they fear bankruptcy >"Suppression" effects as they witness the ISK cost of war firsthand >Spoils of war reduce these effects, while also placing them on the enemy. >Can be governed by line-of-sight, or a simple slider indicating the morale of the opposing teams.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 885	Posted - 2013.10.06 06:15:00 - [4] - Quote Zat Earthshatter wrote: A clone soldier has likely been genetically modified to not fear the weapons of the enemy. The real way to put fear in a clone soldier, is to attack his wallet. Thus, anything really expensive happening in your field of view - HAV destruction, CRU blown up, objective hack, etc. - may intimidate the merc. Instead of just firing at a dude, you'd have to destroy his assets to screw up his combat ability. This would look the same as Suppression, but last for a set time. This "debuff", if you will, would be lessened by the merc witnessing something expensive happening to the enemy. What this creates is a sort of momentum. As you push your attack on the enemy, they become less effective as the match costs them more ISK. However, they can start to turn it around by incurring losses on you. This can actually balance against pubstompers, as they would be affected much more quickly by losing Prototype gear than the blueberries are by losing Militia. In short: >Mercs don't fear death, they fear bankruptcy >"Suppression" effects as they witness the ISK cost of war firsthand >Spoils of war reduce these effects, while also placing them on the enemy. >Can be governed by line-of-sight, or a simple slider indicating the morale of the opposing teams. Genetics don't affect mentality. The mind is a real man or woman's mind, put into a standardised clone body. So the mind is as normal-ish as ours.
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 54	Posted - 2013.10.06 06:21:00 - [5] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Zat Earthshatter wrote: A clone soldier has likely been genetically modified to not fear the weapons of the enemy. The real way to put fear in a clone soldier, is to attack his wallet. Thus, anything really expensive happening in your field of view - HAV destruction, CRU blown up, objective hack, etc. - may intimidate the merc. Instead of just firing at a dude, you'd have to destroy his assets to screw up his combat ability. This would look the same as Suppression, but last for a set time. This "debuff", if you will, would be lessened by the merc witnessing something expensive happening to the enemy. What this creates is a sort of momentum. As you push your attack on the enemy, they become less effective as the match costs them more ISK. However, they can start to turn it around by incurring losses on you. This can actually balance against pubstompers, as they would be affected much more quickly by losing Prototype gear than the blueberries are by losing Militia. In short: >Mercs don't fear death, they fear bankruptcy >"Suppression" effects as they witness the ISK cost of war firsthand >Spoils of war reduce these effects, while also placing them on the enemy. >Can be governed by line-of-sight, or a simple slider indicating the morale of the opposing teams. Genetics don't affect mentality. The mind is a real man or woman's mind, put into a standardised clone body. So the mind is as normal-ish as ours. ... right on man
Jackof All-Trades Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 194	Posted - 2013.10.06 09:29:00 - [6] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Zat Earthshatter wrote: A clone soldier has likely been genetically modified to not fear the weapons of the enemy. The real way to put fear in a clone soldier, is to attack his wallet. Thus, anything really expensive happening in your field of view - HAV destruction, CRU blown up, objective hack, etc. - may intimidate the merc. Instead of just firing at a dude, you'd have to destroy his assets to screw up his combat ability. This would look the same as Suppression, but last for a set time. This "debuff", if you will, would be lessened by the merc witnessing something expensive happening to the enemy. What this creates is a sort of momentum. As you push your attack on the enemy, they become less effective as the match costs them more ISK. However, they can start to turn it around by incurring losses on you. This can actually balance against pubstompers, as they would be affected much more quickly by losing Prototype gear than the blueberries are by losing Militia. In short: >Mercs don't fear death, they fear bankruptcy >"Suppression" effects as they witness the ISK cost of war firsthand >Spoils of war reduce these effects, while also placing them on the enemy. >Can be governed by line-of-sight, or a simple slider indicating the morale of the opposing teams. Genetics don't affect mentality. The mind is a real man or woman's mind, put into a standardised clone body. So the mind is as normal-ish as ours. Agreed. However, if you can't die... Imagine the mentality of someone like that. It would be exactly like the actual player's mentality. The only thing you're really worried about is if you're having fun or not. That's the great thing about EVE and its world - you don't need mentality, because it is identical to your character's.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 886	Posted - 2013.10.06 11:57:00 - [7] - Quote Jackof All-Trades wrote: Agreed. However, if you can't die... Imagine the mentality of someone like that. It would be exactly like the actual player's mentality. The only thing you're really worried about is if you're having fun or not. That's the great thing about EVE and its world - you don't need mentality, because it is identical to your character's. But imagine if you were able to regrow teeth on command. But each day one would go rotten and have to be pulled out. So each day you had to have one pulled out, and each day it would be replaced, yet another would rot. Day after day, you'd have a tooth pulled, without anaesthetic. Would you become cavalier and not care if said tooth was being pulled? Or would you start to dread your daily visits to the dentist because of the pain you experienced? I use tooth pulled analogy because in two sessions at the dentist I had 24 teeth pulled total. And I KNOW how painful that could be, yet I've never died, so I can't tell you how painful that COULD be. Especially if you're left to bleed out. Some people may become desensitized, some may go mad, and some more may live immortally in fear of repeating the process. Since our clones are a 'transferred' consciousness, taking the average person's response to negative stimuli, is that people generally prefer to avoid painful events, even if they know it wont affect them majorly in the future.
Jackof All-Trades Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 195	Posted - 2013.10.08 01:54:00 - [8] - Quote I'll definitely accept your point on that. Nice tooth analogy there are still possible hand waves that could be applied (genetically modified not to have pain, etc) but I think you make a good point
Ferindar Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 65	Posted - 2013.10.08 02:13:00 - [9] - Quote I constantly kill myself as a clone mainly to avoid inconveniences such as haircuts, erectile dysfunction, and acne. But then, my clones often live for up to three days.. You lose that new Clone Smell pretty quick, only takes about two hours.
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 139	Posted - 2013.10.08 02:19:00 - [10] - Quote If I was going to design short-lifespan clones I make it so that don't feel much pain. Whether with genetic engineering or drugs or whatever. I'd aim for something like "Oh look I've just been shot in the right pectoral. How inconvinient." as opposed to "Arghh! I've been shot!". There would be a whole bunch of other useful things you could do to mould the mentality of clone soldiers such as increased risk taking, less fear, more aggression.... As for death assuming that there is little fear of pain the soldier would have had a lot of practise at it. And as with anything practise makes things easier. Also have you ever noticed that while driving a really familiar route you can't remember any details of the drive when you're done? I'd expect something similar from these clone soldiers and death. I like the way things are at the moment. The current fear of death in the game is actually the fear of losing your assets and position on the field rather than instinctive fear of death. With suppression I prefer it when we're actually suppressed because we don't want to get shot rather than some graphics effects. TLDR: Drugs.

lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion 95	Posted - 2013.10.08 03:21:00 - [11] - Quote ....If you want to know the mentality of what a cloned soldier will be like, watch south park, specifcally the coon and friends episodes, where at the end of it Kenny goes. "I'm tired guys" then blows his brains out to go to sleep, since it is the quickest way to bed. The mentality of a cloned soldier would be a really really f-ed up one, because to you, life has no real purpose their is no value in keeping alive if you are paid enough to die. For example, if a corporation offered a group of immortal soldiers, aka our clones five million dollars each to kill themselves in creative or funny ways, I am very sure that we are going to get some very intresting videos and billions of isk paid out to the soldiers till they get bored of just offing themselves or they can't find any new ways to die. If you asked the same thing to a non immortal who can only die once, they're going to be really thinking that one over of if they want to die or not, they would see that life still has value, where as the clone would not see value in life if death was more profitable.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 24	Posted - 2013.10.08 03:28:00 - [12] - Quote The "simulated mentality" comes from the player's mentality. New players being fired at by prototype HMGs generally have some trouble aiming. It wears off with experience, I guess. However, a clone who has died a thousand deaths would probably have enough experience to stay cool under fire.


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