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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
0
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Posted - 2013.10.05 19:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Going off of an idea from This Thread about getting additional War Points based on the combined meta-level of your target's dropsuit.
First off, I will state that this idea is in it's infancy and I would most definitely appreciate feedback and maths on ways to improve it's application. Secondly, I would be recommending that this be implemented in High-Sec areas (ie, Public Matches) not as an overall change (though if it were well received, that could be a possibility.)
Some people find going up against Prototype suits in public matches frustrating and many understand that pub-stomping is not healthy for new player growth, but that does not actually fix the problem. What I suggest is that dropsuit fittings have a total meta-level statistic (ie, the combined meta-levels for all modules, equipment and weapons fitted) which will be applied to an algorithm when in-game kills occur. But more than simply awarding extra WP for killing higher meta-level users, you could go so far as to penalise high-end users when they're going up against 'weaker' opponents. A standard kill awards 50WP, regardless of player skill and relative dropsuit meta-level. I propose that it be altered such that 50WP is the base from which it is modified. One important thing I should note is that I feel that Militia gear should have a meta-level of 0, since this is what new players will universally be starting with, such that they should be getting a leg up to start.
An example:
[Player 1] has an all-militia suit (such as the standard free Assault - Frontline fitting) which would have a meta-level of 0.
[Player 2] is using an all-Prototype suit and, for the sake of simplicity, has a total meta-level of 25.
If [Player 2] kills [Player 1] (very likely in a straight up fight!) then they gain:
50 (standard award) PLUS meta-level difference (Target 0 MINUS Killer 25 = -25) for an end reward of 25 WP.
In an upset, [Player 1] manages to kill [Player 2] then they would gain:
50 PLUS meta-level difference (Target 25 MINUS Killer 0 = +25) for an end reward of 75 WP.
What this would, hopefully, achieve is that the players how routinely utilise Prototype gear in public matches would get reduced returns when facing opponents who are of substantially less threat. Equally, mercs who are facing incredibly difficult opposition, such as in the form of en masse proto geared squads versus teams composed of random mercs, would gain increased rewards for outperforming expectations. This can also be somewhat justified in the background of High-Sec battles: the employers are cost-conscious (this is the EVE universe after all!) and so would be less willing to introduce high-cost actions to support a force that has a qualitative advantage (ie, higher tier equipment) when said actions (eg, Orbital Strikes) would potentially damage the infrastructure that they are paying for you to take.
I will stop rambling and open the floor. I'd very much like to read some feedback on this idea, as I feel it could help make public matches a much less acidic environment. Thank you for your time. |
Jadek Menaheim
WarRavens
League of Infamy
124
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 21:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think match balance encouraged by a Meta level metric system is a tremendous idea. A big hurdle is coming up with a statistic to compute suit meta levels that is fair. Depending on how to build that system, we could see many types of residual effects. For instance, with a sum of "the combined meta-levels for all modules, equipment and weapons fitted" as you described, one thing that could result is a much greater burden placed on teams to keep their logistics operators alive or spawn in only a few. Due to their higher base slot capacity, relative to other suits, Logistics operators would likely have a higher base meta level sum. Arguably, there is a high value in an enemy logistics kill because of the more WP earning potential these suits offer the users with the carrying capacity for hives, rep tools, and spawn pads. On the other hand, penalizing play styles that favor defensive and support roles with logistics suits may not be the best idea.
I think it would be important to add and additional metric which gauges both the meta levels of defensive and offensive attributes, modules, and equipment in a suit and then computes and average score from those variables. |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 22:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
That's a good point actually, I hadn't considered the effect the system would have on large/small slot capacity suits. I think you're right that it would require more than simply applying the meta-level of equipment alone because, as you pointed out, it would affect different roles where the intention was to affect the tiers.
Perhaps some form of metric where it tallies how much of the suit is from which tier (Militia, Standard, Advanced, Prototype) and applies a modifier based on the average meta-level? |
Jadek Menaheim
WarRavens
League of Infamy
125
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 03:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's also important to recognize the effect that an 'averages of suit slot' system would cause as well. Averaging meta levels of all active slot items would be more favorable than sum totals to high slot-equipment heavy suit types such as Minmatar and Gallente variants. It would allow players of these suit types to play defensive support roles in the use of their equipment to assist fellow squad members. However with averages, an easy problem to run into is skewness of data. Savvy fitting players could accentuate the role of logi hunters by equipping high metal level modules and a weapon, whilst placing low 0 and 1 meta equipment such as hives and explosives. This artificially skews the player's total suit meta score down by introducing extreme outliers.
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Talos Vagheitan
King Slayers
53
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Posted - 2013.10.06 04:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Not totally against the idea, but a 25 pt spread is way too much. I wouldn't mind seeing a +5 WP 'Underdog' bonus if someone in a Militia suit, kills someone in a Proto suit. Simple as that. The suits themselves would be the only factor, no guns, modules or anything else in the equation.
I don't want to see the Proto players punished too much for using their expensive gear, they are already risking far more ISK than other players.
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Jadek Menaheim
WarRavens
League of Infamy
125
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 04:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Not totally against the idea, but a 25 pt spread is way too much. I wouldn't mind seeing a +5 WP 'Underdog' bonus if someone in a Militia suit, kills someone in a Proto suit. Simple as that. The suits themselves would be the only factor, no guns, modules or anything else in the equation.
I don't want to see the Proto players punished too much for using their expensive gear, they are already risking far more ISK than other players.
I agree with a low "Underdog" bonus that scales with meta level difference disparity. Maybe 3 to 4 point per level. However, suits can't be the only thing that play into this equation. There are problems that come out out of that when players use militia suits with high powered weapons.
To illustrate, WP based on suit disparity would highly encourage more players to choose the role of the sniper. Simply theorycrafting here, a high proficiency Std. Minmatar Assault can fit a Charge Sniper 2x Complex Dmg Mods, 1x Enh Dmg Mod, Complex CPU, and 1x X-3 Quantum Nanohive.
This highly economized suit can output over 450 dmg per shot from over 400 meters with 30 additional rounds to spare before resupply. Again these figures are calculated on a high SP character. |
Talos Vagheitan
King Slayers
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 05:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Not totally against the idea, but a 25 pt spread is way too much. I wouldn't mind seeing a +5 WP 'Underdog' bonus if someone in a Militia suit, kills someone in a Proto suit. Simple as that. The suits themselves would be the only factor, no guns, modules or anything else in the equation.
I don't want to see the Proto players punished too much for using their expensive gear, they are already risking far more ISK than other players. I agree with a low "Underdog" bonus that scales with meta level difference disparity. Maybe 3 to 4 point per level. However, suits can't be the only thing that play into this equation. There are problems that come out out of that when players use militia suits with high powered weapons. To illustrate, WP based on suit disparity would highly encourage more players to choose the role of the sniper. Simply theorycrafting here, a high proficiency Std. Minmatar Assault can fit a Charge Sniper 2x Complex Dmg Mods, 1x Enh Dmg Mod, Complex CPU, and 1x X-3 Quantum Nanohive. This highly economized suit can output over 450 dmg per shot from over 400 meters with 30 additional rounds to spare before resupply. Again these figures are calculated on a high SP character.
It's an effective and simple way to make the calculation. But feel free to make this more complicated than it needs to be.
People can buff their Militia suits all to hell with equipment, but bottom line: It's still a militia suit. If people want to make "super militia suits" in order to farm a measly 5+ pt bonus on Proto's they manage to kill, then power to them.
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Jadek Menaheim
WarRavens
League of Infamy
125
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 05:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Not totally against the idea, but a 25 pt spread is way too much. I wouldn't mind seeing a +5 WP 'Underdog' bonus if someone in a Militia suit, kills someone in a Proto suit. Simple as that. The suits themselves would be the only factor, no guns, modules or anything else in the equation.
I don't want to see the Proto players punished too much for using their expensive gear, they are already risking far more ISK than other players. I agree with a low "Underdog" bonus that scales with meta level difference disparity. Maybe 3 to 4 point per level. However, suits can't be the only thing that play into this equation. There are problems that come out out of that when players use militia suits with high powered weapons. To illustrate, WP based on suit disparity would highly encourage more players to choose the role of the sniper. Simply theorycrafting here, a high proficiency Std. Minmatar Assault can fit a Charge Sniper 2x Complex Dmg Mods, 1x Enh Dmg Mod, Complex CPU, and 1x X-3 Quantum Nanohive. This highly economized suit can output over 450 dmg per shot from over 400 meters with 30 additional rounds to spare before resupply. Again these figures are calculated on a high SP character. It's an effective and simple way to make the calculation. But feel free to make this more complicated than it needs to be. People can buff their Militia suits all to hell with equipment, but bottom line: It's still a militia suit. If people want to make "super militia suits" in order to farm a measly 5+ pt bonus on Proto's they manage to kill, then power to them.
So, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Your system is a bonus of +5wp that is only awarded if a milita suit kills a protosuit? This doesn't apply to standard suits killing a proto, or a militia killing an advanced suit? |
Talos Vagheitan
King Slayers
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 06:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Not totally against the idea, but a 25 pt spread is way too much. I wouldn't mind seeing a +5 WP 'Underdog' bonus if someone in a Militia suit, kills someone in a Proto suit. Simple as that. The suits themselves would be the only factor, no guns, modules or anything else in the equation.
I don't want to see the Proto players punished too much for using their expensive gear, they are already risking far more ISK than other players. I agree with a low "Underdog" bonus that scales with meta level difference disparity. Maybe 3 to 4 point per level. However, suits can't be the only thing that play into this equation. There are problems that come out out of that when players use militia suits with high powered weapons. To illustrate, WP based on suit disparity would highly encourage more players to choose the role of the sniper. Simply theorycrafting here, a high proficiency Std. Minmatar Assault can fit a Charge Sniper 2x Complex Dmg Mods, 1x Enh Dmg Mod, Complex CPU, and 1x X-3 Quantum Nanohive. This highly economized suit can output over 450 dmg per shot from over 400 meters with 30 additional rounds to spare before resupply. Again these figures are calculated on a high SP character. It's an effective and simple way to make the calculation. But feel free to make this more complicated than it needs to be. People can buff their Militia suits all to hell with equipment, but bottom line: It's still a militia suit. If people want to make "super militia suits" in order to farm a measly 5+ pt bonus on Proto's they manage to kill, then power to them. So, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Your system is a bonus of +5wp that is only awarded if a milita suit kills a protosuit? This doesn't apply to standard suits killing a proto, or a militia killing an advanced suit?
To be honest, if it were up to me I might not implement this system at all. There are bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things.
But when possible, keep things simple. Right now a kill is 50 WP. Fair enough. Players can choose to risk as much or as little ISK as they want in a match, to field more or less effective suits. Also fair enough.
So I have no problem with chucking players in Militia suits a 'pat on the back's' worth of 5 WP for taking out a far superior Proto player. But when you want to start throwing in WP penalties/bonuses for every suit, weapon and module levels, the whole thing turns into a complicated mess. Meaning a player would almost never get the same reward for different kills, and just further confuse new players.
Furthermore, you don't want to punish people for using Proto equipment. It's great for the Dust economy when people go out and lose their Proto gear.
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Jadek Menaheim
WarRavens
League of Infamy
125
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 13:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Not totally against the idea, but a 25 pt spread is way too much. I wouldn't mind seeing a +5 WP 'Underdog' bonus if someone in a Militia suit, kills someone in a Proto suit. Simple as that. The suits themselves would be the only factor, no guns, modules or anything else in the equation.
I don't want to see the Proto players punished too much for using their expensive gear, they are already risking far more ISK than other players. I agree with a low "Underdog" bonus that scales with meta level difference disparity. Maybe 3 to 4 point per level. However, suits can't be the only thing that play into this equation. There are problems that come out out of that when players use militia suits with high powered weapons. To illustrate, WP based on suit disparity would highly encourage more players to choose the role of the sniper. Simply theorycrafting here, a high proficiency Std. Minmatar Assault can fit a Charge Sniper 2x Complex Dmg Mods, 1x Enh Dmg Mod, Complex CPU, and 1x X-3 Quantum Nanohive. This highly economized suit can output over 450 dmg per shot from over 400 meters with 30 additional rounds to spare before resupply. Again these figures are calculated on a high SP character. It's an effective and simple way to make the calculation. But feel free to make this more complicated than it needs to be. People can buff their Militia suits all to hell with equipment, but bottom line: It's still a militia suit. If people want to make "super militia suits" in order to farm a measly 5+ pt bonus on Proto's they manage to kill, then power to them. So, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Your system is a bonus of +5wp that is only awarded if a milita suit kills a protosuit? This doesn't apply to standard suits killing a proto, or a militia killing an advanced suit? To be honest, if it were up to me I might not implement this system at all. There are bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things. But when possible, keep things simple. Right now a kill is 50 WP. Fair enough. Players can choose to risk as much or as little ISK as they want in a match, to field more or less effective suits. Also fair enough. So I have no problem with chucking players in Militia suits a 'pat on the back's' worth of 5 WP for taking out a far superior Proto player. But when you want to start throwing in WP penalties/bonuses for every suit, weapon and module levels, the whole thing turns into a complicated mess. Meaning a player would almost never get the same reward for different kills, and just further confuse new players. Furthermore, you don't want to punish people for using Proto equipment. It's great for the Dust economy when people go out and lose their Proto gear.
You do make valid point in regards to complexity of the system, but at its core a meta level penalty/bonus system encourages less protosuit use in Pub matches as the OP is initially arguing for. If the system carried over to PC battles we wouldn't see much of a change in teams fielding high meta suits as the rewards and stakes of the matches are higher. However, some teams in PC matches may make the conscientious choice to field meta equivalent advanced or even standard suits in order to game the system for more war points. Yet, this comes at a disadvantage to being more squishy in battle.
Ultimately, moving in a direction of where meta level metrics matter, it appears that system would encourage greater tactical level thinking and variety in matches. |
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
3
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Posted - 2013.10.06 14:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:To be honest, if it were up to me I might not implement this system at all. There are bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things.
I agree to a point, but we are not the developers and thus need not focus solely on the needs but can also look to the wants. Everyone who enjoys DUST wants it to grow and succeed, so we should still be looking forward too. This suggestion is an attempt to bridge that in a small way: Pubstomping is a problem and this idea is intended to try and reward folks who are struggling uphill.
Talos Vagheitan wrote:But when possible, keep things simple. Right now a kill is 50 WP. Fair enough. Players can choose to risk as much or as little ISK as they want in a match, to field more or less effective suits. Also fair enough.
I also agree, because simple is often better. However, ISK is not necessarily a balancing factor right now since plenty of the older players have amassed an enormous amount of ISK with which they can wheel out their best suits to continually batter down newer players fresh out of the academy. By introducing a metric whereby weaker suits can get rewarded for outperforming their expectations, and inversely where much stronger suits get punished for 'unnecessary force' as it were then you create a more healthy game balance.
As I said in my OP, I don't think it would be necessary to apply this game-wide, but application to the most basic level of gaming (Public Matches) would be a good way of promoting community control, which is kind of CCP's thing.
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Furthermore, you don't want to punish people for using Proto equipment. It's great for the Dust economy when people go out and lose their Proto gear.
Actually you sort of need to, otherwise the game will die eventually. If the only viable way to play is using Proto, then the newer players who do not have access to it will be unable to compete and will be forced to grind through almost endless matches against significantly superior opponents until they can access Proto gear themselves. This is not a good way to have a game grow.
Jadek Menaheim wrote:You do make valid point in regards to complexity of the system, but at its core a meta level penalty/bonus system encourages less protosuit use in Pub matches as the OP is initially arguing for. If the system carried over to PC battles we wouldn't see much of a change in teams fielding high meta suits as the rewards and stakes of the matches are higher. However, some teams in PC matches may make the conscientious choice to field meta equivalent advanced or even standard suits in order to game the system for more war points. Yet, this comes at a disadvantage to being more squishy in battle.
Exactly, I'm glad my point is clear enough :)
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Ultimately, moving in a direction of where meta level metrics matter, it appears that system would encourage greater tactical level thinking and variety in matches.
Definitely, there would be much more depth to the system as a whole and would encourage a degree of restraint without enforcing it. |
Vesago Ghostcore
Rejected Clones
36
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Posted - 2013.10.06 16:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
I like the original numbers for WP, if you consider that in general, the Proto player already has millions upon millions of SP, and the guy in the militia gear probably does not, why shouldn't they get extra SP for a kill. In a system of diminishing returns, the person doing something for the first time learns faster than the person that has 25000 kills. It might help to close the gap a little faster. New players are at more of a disadvantage than just equipment. A toon with 5 AR, 5 AR proficiency, and 5 AR sharpshooter is going to kill 3 times as fast with a militia AR than a noob with none of that.
I say give the noob a bump... +1
In addition, the penalty seems reasonable as well. Since WP = SP shouldn't you get less for doing something that is easier than doing something that is harder?
just my .02 |
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