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Tebu Gan
CrimeWave Syndicate
129
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Posted - 2013.10.04 21:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
I gots me a deep question here, brace yourselves.
What is balance?
It is something that needs to be defined before you can provide any sort of constructive feedback.
So what IS balance, say between AV and Tanks. What does it mean to balance Vehicles and AV?
What variables are involved, to determine balance?
And what does balance mean to the devs? How do they go about creating balance. |
Tebu Gan
CrimeWave Syndicate
130
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 22:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hellkeizer wrote:A balance would be when a majority of the players don't complain about it
People will always complain. Sometimes I think a lot of it is in how a person fits and uses his character. I can do rather decent myself in std gear.
This does not define balance. |
Tebu Gan
CrimeWave Syndicate
130
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 22:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I would say that it's a state where everything is satisfying to use and has a clear role, without dominating everything else or being overshadowed in its role.
A good definition of balance. |
Tebu Gan
CrimeWave Syndicate
130
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 22:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:There is a formula where isk+skill buys you a better KDR. If the skill required is low (swarm launcher) and the costs are low (130k for an AV setup), and it's easy to land a triple-kill on an 800k tank, then the balance is a bit off. The guy who was running the expensive tank didn't get as much for his isk+skill investment. The only time his KDR is improved is vs non-AV infantry, or maybe inferior tanks or tankers. If one team lacks AV, then any decent tank is OP (not balanced) vs infantry - see TeamPlayers pub-stomp video. I don't think that's really fun for either side.
I think balance could be improved 3 ways - first, reduce the power of AV (FORGE, SWARM, and AV Nades) and second, reduce tank dps vs infantry by some tweakable value - 50% for a start.
Lastly, increase the effectiveness of standard weapons. Instead of being 99% resisted, experiment with lesser values, like 75%. This would make it possible for a full squad or two to take out a tank with small arms fire and explosive grenades. Sure, the tank will kill lots of infantry, but maybe 100-200 damage here and there from regular grenades, (700 or 800 from AV grenades) would balance things out a bit. A full squad of HMGs should be able to stop a tank - but as it is now, they can barely take out an LAV. This would of course discourage tankers from completely dominating vs infantry.
I think fun could be improved by reducing the costs (tanks+fittings) for tankers by promoting more tank usage, and more tank-on-tank action.
I do not like your last one, but it is a way to address the problem of requiring AV or another tank to be present on the battlefield to create balance.
Though tweaking those numbers does see like a good idea, but 75% is far too over the top.
Additionally, your idea of lowering tank damage is a perfect idea, while reducing the damage of AV. This to me shifts the balance closer to infantry, giving them a fighting chance when no AV is out. But it gives tanks a fighting chance against AV as well. |
Tebu Gan
CrimeWave Syndicate
130
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 22:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:Good point! What is Balance... Does that mean there should be no advantage for any suit combination. Because that is not the idea. Your gimped and its CCP's fault (try a different setup). You can have other problems but Balance?
Example:
Person runs a lvl 3 basic suit and a Militia Assault Rifle and loads his suit with mods that do not work for his playing style... Then the guy in a proto suit and a +5 Assault Rifle variant with mods that perfectly suit his playing style.... They should be balanced?
Balance = Equality
Not at all, but proto shouldn't be an I win button. There needs to be a balance between tiers, not too weak but not too strong. |
Tebu Gan
CrimeWave Syndicate
131
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 01:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote:Not going to answer your question, OP, but instead I'll respond to your title.
"Balance"
Dust 514 can't currently be properly balanced because it is missing a significant chunk of basic content, including basic racial variants of dropsuits and vehicles.
You guys might see me around the forums a bit harping on this idea of 'basic content.'
Yes, feel you there. But I think if they get a basic system ironed out for balancing, they can add new content that balances out with existing content.
It's defining what balance is that puts you one step closer to that goal. And creating a system to follow, so you are not just shooting in the dark so to speak. Gallente are armor, Caldari are shields. Min are hybrids with a focus on speed. Amar are hybrids with a focus on defense. Seems right you would balance your 2 extremes, than focus on your mixed.
I like the responses so far, keep them coming! |
Tebu Gan
CrimeWave Syndicate
131
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 01:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Everything excelling at something, everything being weak at something, everything being viable, nothing being overshadowed or made obsolete by another thing, the risk associated with something has to be worth the rewards, the investments you made into something has to pay off.
As for vehicles vs AV, personally I believe they should be weak against AV, but not impossible to survive. I also believe AV should be weak against regular infantry. Regular infantry should be weak against vehicles. Basically rock paper scissors. Vehicle prices have to reflect their weakness against AV though, the risk right now isn't worth it IMO. I use a Swarm + SMG + triage nanohives for ammo+reps. Overwhelming vs tanks and decent vs infantry. Having custom fits makes Dust unique, but we could discourage fits like mine. It could be a damage mod that occupies the sidearm slot, or a 'power unit' that needs to be deployed before you can use your AV weapons. There might be a special advantage in dedicated AV setups, but omni fits like mine wouldn't be so handily cost effective vs vehicles.
Not well fit vehicles. But as a tank pilot, skilling into logi, a swarm would be awesome for my fit. Most of the time I run with a rep tool anyways. Rarely pull out that Assault rifle of mine.
But I'm at a lost when I face a tank in my infantry setup (except to call in my own tank).
Swarms would remedy that, plus I could beat on a tank with my tank, and if they get the best of me, jump out and launch some salvos (because I can't stand another tank beating my tank. I drive a gunnlogi btw which are beat hands down by maddies). |
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