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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3232
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Posted - 2013.10.02 14:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:The Logistics and Assault Dropships are going to be taken out temporarily, but they should be returning in the future. As was said in the first post, we want to go back to basics and get the core interactions working first. Then we can look at branching back out once we have a solid foundation.
Could you elaborate on the blast radius values for turrets? |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3232
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Posted - 2013.10.02 14:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Lol, lol, and lol. One use of a heat sink module and blaster ammo is gone. Fewer slots than current MLT vehicles. A Limbus now will have more slots than the Madrugar once this comes. No 180mm plate.
One good thing is that we now get fitting optimization skills to reduce resource requirements.
What we really want is explanations as to why he made the changes this way and not any other way.
I mean seriously, armor we could get with one plate and one repper is less than 6000.
180 plates were replaced with Complex 120's (roughly the same armor values)
Better Armor Hardeners means you can survive longer on the front-line. Resistances are always going to be better than raw HP when the **** hits the fan. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3232
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Posted - 2013.10.02 14:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gorra Snell wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Could you elaborate on the blast radius values for turrets?
Yeah, they look...odd. Maybe they're listing circumferences now
I hope not. Circumference is a terrible way to gauge blast range. Diameter is better, imo - the distance from one side of the blast to the other. Circumference is just unnecessary confusion. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3232
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Posted - 2013.10.02 14:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:I don't see how you tankers aren't absolutely furious over this.
We all saw this coming. People thought tankers were just being cynical when we said they were going to nerf us again. Here we are, getting nerfed. Good thing these notes came out before I bought some aurum, now I know better. Thanks for saving me money CCP!
So instead of whining about it, how about you propose something different? |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3232
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Posted - 2013.10.02 15:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:The Attorney General wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:I don't see how you tankers aren't absolutely furious over this.
We all saw this coming. People thought tankers were just being cynical when we said they were going to nerf us again. Here we are, getting nerfed. Good thing these notes came out before I bought some aurum, now I know better. Thanks for saving me money CCP! So instead of whining about it, how about you propose something different? Have you missed a boatload of threads to improve tanks?
I have, because I honestly don't care. CCP has a good concept layed out and they have three months to work on it. If you don't like what they have, say something in this thread since they're asking for feedback. "Improve tanks" is largely opinionated and circumstantial with everyone wanting Tanks to be God Mode like they were when Marauders were around and "improve AV" is largely opinionated and circumstantial with everyone wanting Tanks to be paper thin.
So, do what you want because any time someone throws out an opinion in one of these threads you just spew acid all over the place. Peace, I'm out. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3235
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Posted - 2013.10.02 15:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
So instead of whining about it, how about you propose something different?
Clearly you haven't been reading for the past four months or so, suggestions have been made, and ignored. My biggest suggestion was to buff shield tanks to be able to compete with armor, and then tone down AV nades and fix the rendering on swarms. Tanks are not that bad. Instead, it looks as though we are getting stripped down to basics, with standard suit levels of survivability. There needs to be a concrete plan in place to get us our full spectrum of models ASAP, because fighting proto AV right now can be unpleasant, in these new models it will be much more difficult.
Right. That's what they -said they were going to do at the beginning of the post-.
You haven't seen AV Rebalancing yet so how do you honestly know what's going on..? |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3235
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Posted - 2013.10.02 15:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: What is it with you infantry believing we want tanks to be indestructible? You get grenades that do ~2000 damage against armor. That's not enough?
You get a Railgun that does 1,800+ damage from 10x the range. A Large Missile Launcher that does more than that.
I'm sorry but basing an argument on three legitimate AV options: Swarms which do more damage than they honestly should, AV grenades which require you to be danger close and Forges which are actually pretty well balanced. Versus Tanks which are good for everything except AV.
I dunno what to tell you because it's not going to be what you want to hear. Obviously, CCP doesn't either. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3235
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Posted - 2013.10.02 15:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:
They want feedback.
I can only use current AV as a reference right, so unless you want me to sit back and demand the AV changes before commenting, it seems like your criticism is off base.
Ah, the undefeatable argument that always rolls out at some point in AV vs Vehicle discussion.
Chicken or the egg, I say. Must be why they delayed the changes to beyond 1.6
The criticism isn't off base, in fact it's spot on. AV has it's strengths and weaknesses where as vehicles have their strengths and weaknesses. Forge Guns require use by a Heavy, AV Grenades require you to be danger close (which if you have proper infantry support this is not a problem). Swarm Launchers are the only thing I can see as a problem because of their remarkably unbalanced skill-to-power ratio. You'd think that the Plasma Cannon, requiring more skill to use than a Forge Gun, would have the highest damage out of all of them.
So, either you're disputing the fact that I'm agreeing that AV is an issue for the sake of your own argument in that vehicles are under-powered, solely for the sake of it.... or you're saying that because there have been previous threads regarding feedback that it's completely useless to point out the obvious problems as plainly and without bias as possible.
Fact is, we don't know what they're doing about AV - and yeah the stats might suck right now but considering they're adhering to the concept they laid out they did so pretty spot on. Complaining that it's a nerf to armor tanks isn't solving anything when you don't know all of the details and saying "well we said it before" is about as good as saying that you sent a letter to congress before. Think about how many threads and responses there are and consider how much that honestly matters when everyone is saying something different.
Even then, you're more likely to get CCP's attention by being general with concepts and feedback rather than throwing out a wall of numbers that they already know. "I'd like it if Armor Tanks were 'x' and Shield tanks were 'y'" is about all it really takes. In closed discussions with other forum goers we actually suggested that Enforcers, focusing on long range, should have the same stats as the base HAVs but retain their bonus at the expense of not having small turrets (since they don't really have the range anyway). We never once specified numbers, just threw out a concept.
You're more likely to catch flies with honey than with phosphoric acid. Work on that. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3235
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Posted - 2013.10.02 15:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote: What is it with you infantry believing we want tanks to be indestructible? You get grenades that do ~2000 damage against armor. That's not enough?
You get a Railgun that does 1,800+ damage from 10x the range. A Large Missile Launcher that does more than that. I'm sorry but basing an argument on three legitimate AV options: Swarms which do more damage than they honestly should, AV grenades which require you to be danger close and Forges which are actually pretty well balanced. Versus Tanks which are good for everything except AV. I dunno what to tell you because it's not going to be what you want to hear. Obviously, CCP doesn't either. Railgun that can shoot other vehicles at 10x the range, testing last night, turret installation not locked onto me took me to get with 168m range with a rail gun for it to render, when locked on it rendered at 230m.... infantry rendering for the most is pathetic, then every so often the game will allow you to see them at 200m. Large missile launchers that were changed to need virtually direct hits on infantry( a mass damage has a more effective splash system going) but good versus tanks and istallations. dange close AV.... Or just on the other side of a wall, or in a scout suit. Forge guns..... Still unsure about these TBO, my main issue is how cheap they are compared to turrets. Ishy FG does 100(ish) less damage than a 900k proto type rail turret. breach does 1k more damage.
Rendering, while playing into the overall balance, isn't related to vehicle balancing. It's a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself.
Just as well, Breach Forge Gun requires the user to be completely immobile and Forge Guns in their entirety require the user to move slower when charging. A small window but a window none-the-less. Even then they have a maximum range of <350m (I'm not sure of this number specifically, I just know they can't go beyond that). Fix the rendering and that's no longer a problem for Rail-guns with 600 meter (redline) range. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3246
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Posted - 2013.10.03 03:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:The Attorney General wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:I don't see how you tankers aren't absolutely furious over this.
We all saw this coming. People thought tankers were just being cynical when we said they were going to nerf us again. Here we are, getting nerfed. Good thing these notes came out before I bought some aurum, now I know better. Thanks for saving me money CCP! So instead of whining about it, how about you propose something different? Aeon man, like people haven't been suggesting alternate ideas for like, ever. Especially over the last few months. So from this I can see that, LLAV`s are going? Same as some of the dropships including the assault dropship and that just makes me laugh so much! I can see why CCP is having problems. My god. Ever since "14th of may" release this game has fumbled like no other. Lets not even mention wasted SP people have put into assault dropships, logi lav`s etc... I guess being a healer / medic really isn't supported in this game.
All of those alternate ideas usually come with some sort of crazy proposal that's unmanageable. I've yet to see a completely un-bias AV vs Vehicle thread (despite many saying they were) and if any of them ever came close they were often dismissed because the person used militia -something-. Even then, it's as I said before, saying that there were alternatives presented previously is like saying you sent a letter to congress in the past. It gets lost and considering that it's outdated, not falling in with CCP's new concepts currently laid out, is largely irrelevant.
I'll stress the fact that they're balancing from the ground up, meaning that it's going to be a hell of a lot easier than trying to find the minute differences in all of the vehicles/turrets/modules and trying to tweak them so they're balanced when they truly won't be because you're either balancing against tanks or balancing against AV.
For the better part of a month or two now I've been part of a closed think-tank consisting of both AV specialists and Vehicle specialists and we've tossed ideas around. There was a point where I had gotten frustrated with the game and took time off but in the time that I was there our proposals were about as sane as they could have been. Mostly relating to the fact that certain vehicle had drawbacks in unnecessary places - like the Enforcers.
Now that those specializations are gone, CCP can balance from the ground up without trying to make weird specializations like the Black Ops HAVs or over-powered ones like the Logistics LAVs which served no purpose other than running people over due to repair modules being too difficult to use.
You can say that since 14th of May the game has fumbled, but there's been a lot of progress since then. Aim Assist, Match-maker, Planetary Conquest changes, Weapon and Dropsuit balancing (flaylock and Caldari Logi specifically), fixes to the Murder Taxi... We've gotten a lot accomplished. If you don't like the speed at which those things are accomplished, you're welcome to move on to another game. Dust will still be here when you get back and likely will be better when you do come back.
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3249
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Posted - 2013.10.03 07:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
So much bitching about CCP 'nerfing' tanks and not an ounce of feedback. You guys are doing an awesome job of the communication CCP is finally doing.
Just shooting yourselves in the face and complaining that it hurts. Pretty soon you'll be right back to bitching that CCP doesn't talk.
Here's my feedback:
- Rendering and draw distance is a major problem but I look forward to the fixes in 1.5 - maybe they'll be ironed out. - Swarms do far too much damage for such ease of use. - Plasma Cannons still need to be decided on whether they're anti-infantry or anti-vehicle, and then changed accordingly. - Forge Guns are really well balanced right now but their damage might need to be turned down slightly in accordance with these new changes. - Large Missiles need a larger splash radius for them to be suppression weapons, right now they have less radius than small arms. - Small railguns need a complete rework as they're fair too difficult to use with too little damage for when you actually hit someone (I have yet to ever successfully hit anything with them) - Small Blasters might need a slight range boost as giving them ammo counts as well as overheat makes them very conditional. - Blasters need to have a slight blast radius otherwise they fall victim to hit detection issues, they previous had this and it made a Small Scattered Blaster on the back of an LAV an amazing tide-turner when aiming at the feet. - Small Turrets (all of them) need turret shields. - Remote Repair and Shield Transport modules need to have a better control scheme and longer range. I would suggest having them replace turrets for use with vehicles and infantry repair modules to work in a sphere around the vehicle. - WP rewards added for repairing friendlies. Not having any makes Vehicle Logistics a tough job. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3252
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Posted - 2013.10.03 08:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Victor889 wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:So much bitching about CCP 'nerfing' tanks and not an ounce of feedback. You guys are doing an awesome job of the communication CCP is finally doing.
Just shooting yourselves in the face and complaining that it hurts. Pretty soon you'll be right back to bitching that CCP doesn't talk.
Here's my feedback:
- Rendering and draw distance is a major problem but I look forward to the fixes in 1.5 - maybe they'll be ironed out. - Swarms do far too much damage for such ease of use. - Plasma Cannons still need to be decided on whether they're anti-infantry or anti-vehicle, and then changed accordingly. - Forge Guns are really well balanced right now but their damage might need to be turned down slightly in accordance with these new changes. - Large Missiles need a larger splash radius for them to be suppression weapons, right now they have less radius than small arms. - Small railguns need a complete rework as they're fair too difficult to use with too little damage for when you actually hit someone (I have yet to ever successfully hit anything with them) - Small Blasters might need a slight range boost as giving them ammo counts as well as overheat makes them very conditional. - Blasters need to have a slight blast radius otherwise they fall victim to hit detection issues, they previous had this and it made a Small Scattered Blaster on the back of an LAV an amazing tide-turner when aiming at the feet. - Small Turrets (all of them) need turret shields. - Remote Repair and Shield Transport modules need to have a better control scheme and longer range. I would suggest having them replace turrets for use with vehicles and infantry repair modules to work in a sphere around the vehicle. - WP rewards added for repairing friendlies. Not having any makes Vehicle Logistics a tough job. Some very good points, perhaps a lot of people - like me aren't really 'true' vehicle players, so are probably best just not **** posting on here, I really like you're idea of the repair 'bubble' - I had the same thoughts a while back but it needs to be carefully thought about because of things going through floors etc. The turrets shields is a good idea but I think part of the allure of a LAV turret for example is the danger that you'll get killed if you're on there too long - stops camping with an OP Proto turret too (not that anyone does that). Blast radius damage on blasters is a no-no I feel, I don't remember them having such (unless it was before Feb when I joined), this would make them fairly powerful - rapid fire and blast radius? hmm.. The rendering is a very interesting one too - I fear this will have some negatives, but looking forward to the positives once it's implemented. I think people - unless they have something constructive to say, should avoid posting on here, go start your own thread, but then, you can't stop them. I applaud you sir - some good points - let's hope CCP pick them up.
Grab a Proto Small Scattered Blaster and throw it on the back of a Logistics LAV. Aim at their feet, you'll notice the splash damage almost immediately. It's far more effective than aiming directly at them.
As far as the bubble reps, we already see this with Triage Nanohives and while I don't think they go through floors I don't suspect that'd be a big issue what with LAVs being notoriously hard to actually get on top of buildings.
Turret shields should be a higher priority, I think, mostly because Dust is the only game I've ever played where vehicles don't have some form of protection for their gunners. Battlefield 3 has turret shields and actually has half of the player's body inside the vehicle where as Planetside has the gunner inside the vehicle, protected entirely by it. 23,000 years into the future and no-one thought of putting some kind of protection for their gunners, lol. That being said, the driver is more likely to survive. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3255
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Posted - 2013.10.03 10:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:So much bitching about CCP 'nerfing' tanks and not an ounce of feedback. You guys are doing an awesome job of the communication CCP is finally doing.
I've got some feedback for you Aeon, I think your a pole smoking re-tard from a corp of wanna be scrubs who get stomped by teams of randoms.
Interesting. I've never even heard of your corporation, or you. Funny how we only remember players who kill us, not the players we kill. Must have done something very very bad to you to warrant that kind of response.
Any other pearls of wisdom? Person who I'm going to immediately forget after I hit 'post' and subsequently report for personal attacks -just because I can-? |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3261
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Posted - 2013.10.04 05:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:Couple of things to keep in mind guys:
AV weapons should also be getting work done to them to bring them in line with the new numbers. Those will be posted at a later date. For now, try to focus on vehicle vs vehicle interactions.
Small arms shouldn't be able to disrupt shield recharging. I don't have the exact number for the threshold off the top of my head, but it should be enough to prevent someone from pinging you with an assault rifle to stop the recharge.
On another note, CCP Wolfman is out of his cave for a short time, so it might be a little while before he pops his head back into the thread. Keep the feedback rolling in though to make sure he's got a nice list of things to talk about when he gets back (and don't worry, there will be enough time for talking when he gets back) Man oh man, as long as AV becomes reworked accordingly, this may not be so bad after all.
That's what I've been trying to tell you guys this entire time O_o; |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3264
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Posted - 2013.10.04 12:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:Hold on...DAMAGE MODS ARE VH SLOTS!? WTFdoes madrugar get plates AND damage mods. The caldari are supposed to be the glass cannons - not gallente.
Neither of them were ever glass cannons in either Eve Online or Dust 514...
Eve Online
Caldari prefer shield tanking and range, utilizing their low slots to accomplish this while sacrificing key e-war capabilities in the med slots (taken up by shield modules)
Gallente prefer active armor tanking with high resistances and recovery rate as to not sacrifice speed so they can get in close to deal high damage with their weaponry which happens to have the highest damage/shortest range in the game
Dust 514 (infantry)
Caldari prefer shield tanking at the expense of maximum survivability with open low slots for versatility for skirmishing "hit and run" style combat Gallente prefer armor tanking at the expense of speed with a propensity for fitting damage mods in their hi's since they can't fit anything else.
Now, vehicles might have some differences but at no point were either of them -ever- glass cannons and considering that there are no damage mods for vehicles and almost all vehicle mods are in the low slots I have no idea where you're getting this from. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3264
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Posted - 2013.10.04 14:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:CharCharOdell wrote:Hold on...DAMAGE MODS ARE VH SLOTS!? WTFdoes madrugar get plates AND damage mods. The caldari are supposed to be the glass cannons - not gallente. Now, vehicles might have some differences but at no point were either of them -ever- glass cannons and considering that there are no damage mods for vehicles and almost all vehicle mods are in the low slots I have no idea where you're getting this from. What you yapping about? No dmg mods for vehicles? can you read? Damage amplifiers they are called in the picture They have been changed from vehicle low to vehicle high slots this i assume is to be more in line with dropsuits but its opposite in EVE Thing is tho now maddys are slower with plates but can whack on a speed boost and 1 DMG mod to make it up, shield on the other hand should be faster and can also carry an ammo box but would have to sacrifice tank for speed and dmg like maddys do now
I was speaking currently. Lose the snarky comments, you're not impressing anyone here.
This makes sense, Caldari's being about range and considering you're not going to be putting a Blaster on a Gunnlogi I don't see what the problem is. Missiles/Rails shouldn't require speed, they require precision - this also goes with the fact that Shield Tanks are going to have a better ability to passive tank while Armor Tanks have a better active. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3264
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Posted - 2013.10.04 14:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Brush Master wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:As far as partial respecs/refunds for vehicle related stuff goes, they are on the table. No details yet, but that's because we're still discussing how we want to do it. We will let you know when we've decided how it will go down. Definitely encourage you guys to come up with a more permanent solution to respec per skill/skill dependencies. Whether its only you guys resetting any skill you can and/or a player Aur reset version. It is really needed with things constantly changing and still being balanced.
CCP orchestrated resets make sense but Aurum? No, players need to understand that investing in a skill is a lasting decision and this subsequently encourages specialization. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3265
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Posted - 2013.10.05 07:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nguruthos IX wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:As far as the removed vehicle types go, we are looking to return them. However, we need to battle test the base variants first so we have a solid platform to work from.
As far as modules go, we will also looking at returning some (but not necessarily all) of them. Again, we need to cut down and get the basics battle tested before we can throw back in all sorts of good stuff.
As good as number crunching and internal playtesting may be, it's not as good as you guys fighting each other with these vehicles live. Which is why I might suggest not to belay deployment of this vehicle patch on account of balance concerns. That'll hammer itself out quicker on the live server than in a year of internal play-testing. Although I think waiting for all STD-racial variants may also be as prudent, Definitely would not bother doing internal testing past the point where it functionally Could go live.
Right, assuming that CCP actually balanced/fixed the things in an orderly manner. How long did we have to deal with Murder Taxi's after the 60% HP increase -hotfix-? |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3265
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Posted - 2013.10.05 07:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:Couple of things to keep in mind guys:
AV weapons should also be getting work done to them to bring them in line with the new numbers. Those will be posted at a later date. For now, try to focus on vehicle vs vehicle interactions.
Small arms shouldn't be able to disrupt shield recharging. I don't have the exact number for the threshold off the top of my head, but it should be enough to prevent someone from pinging you with an assault rifle to stop the recharge.
On another note, CCP Wolfman is out of his cave for a short time, so it might be a little while before he pops his head back into the thread. Keep the feedback rolling in though to make sure he's got a nice list of things to talk about when he gets back (and don't worry, there will be enough time for talking when he gets back) Man oh man, as long as AV becomes reworked accordingly, this may not be so bad after all. That's what I've been trying to tell you guys this entire time O_o; Most of us were probably waiting for an actual confirmation.
Lol, if you think CCP's stupid enough to re-organize vehicles in this manner without touching AV's (let alone touch vehicles at all) then you have too little faith =P Quit letting the forum-whiners get to you, they're game developers not interns xD |
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