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Making a MLT Scrambler Rifle and adding a lower assault variant (stats)

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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2426	Posted - 2013.09.26 02:59:00 - [1] - Quote So, ideally we would like all of the racial starter fits to be outfitted in racially appropriate gear. Why would footsoldiers in the empress's army use Gallente tech? Why would Minmatar use weapons of their former masters? etc. etc. Unfortunately, many weapons don't even have MLT variants (which is what starter fits would use). One outstanding case is the Scrambler Rifle - the race (Amarr) exists and so does the rifle, but the starter fits still use plasma ARs. Part of this may be the nature of the fitting themselves. Take an Amarr Assault MLT starter fit... The Frontline model is currently: 2 MLT Light Damage mods 1 MLT AR 1 MLT Scrambler Pistol 1 MLT Locus Grenade This fits, obviously. The MLT Amarr suit is 175 CPU, 30 PG (most pg of the MLT suits I think). If you replaced that AR with a Scrambler, it's basically an all-Amarr suit, so that's good, right? A STD Scrambler rifle is 29 CPU and 11 PG, let's throw it on the suit to start: 2 MLT light Damage mods (30 CPU, 5 PG) 1 STD Scrambler Rifle (29 CPU, 11 PG) 1 MLT Scrambler Pistol (20 CPU, 5 PG) 1 MLT Locus Grenade (12 CPU, 4 PG) With this setup, the MLT Amarr suit will hit 30 PG (the limit of the suit). So, it basically leave no space to increase the fitting reqs on the scrambler rifle for a MLT version and add it to Amarr-themed suits. They've jacked the PG too high on the default version. Scramblers also have assault variants with lower CPU/PG reqs, but assault variants don't exist until advanced for whatever stupid reason (you actually need to have Operation 4, not 3 as well). I'd propose making a STD Assault Scrambler, and then making a MLT knock-off of that. This can get the stats low enough to fit the rifle on the suit. Here come the numbers: ADV Scrambler CPU/PG: 53/16 DMG: 75.6 ADV Assault Scrambler CPU/PG: 48/12 DMG: 37.8 STD Scrambler: CPU/PG: 29/11 DMG: 72 STD Ass. Scrambler CPU/PG: 26/8 DMG: 36 This applies the exact same percentage difference in damage (5% more at ADV, 10% at PRO) as is typical for weapons. The fitting reqs are adjusted similarly, with CPU about 10% lower and PG about 25% lower for the assault variant. MLT fitting is a bit different, as there's no set percentage in adjustment. This is most obvious with SMGs and Scrambler pistols, which both have the same MLT fitting but different stats at STD. Taking a different approach, we can add the same amount of CPU/PG as is added to an AR (7/2): MLT Assault Scrambler CPU/PG: 33/10 DMG: 36 Clip-size: 58 (about 80% of normal, same hit as MLT AR) Heat Build-up: 20 (about 33% higher than normal) This produces a weapon that can be swapped out on the Amarr frontline suit without breaking the fitting. The intermediary step (STD level Assault Scrambler) isn't absolutely necessary to make this MLT model, but I included that step so you can see the math that brought us to the final product. Of course, if the AR, etc. get their damage adjusted down because of TTK issues, I would expect everything to be adjusted down accordingly.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2428	Posted - 2013.09.26 03:40:00 - [2] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Hard to fit a 33 CPU 10 PG Scrambler compared to a MLT AR (30 CPU 5 PG I think?) I guess that's sort of already the case when comparing Scramblers and ARs though. That's seems to be a theme with Amarr gear. The Amarr MLT suit has higher fitting/PG than the other MLT suits, but Amarr gear requires more fitting to use as well. In this case, it's twice the PG, true. However, the stark PG gaps are already the case across the board where the Scrambler is concerned. An Imperial Scrambler requires 20 PG, a Duvolle AR, 13 PG. The regular Scrambler has the highest PG consumption of any weapon in the game. In a stat comparison of the various weapons' regular Proto version, you can see the Scrambler has the highest (even above a Forge gun). So, the challenge in developing a MLT version is adjust stats in such a manner that it can still fit a suit, while maintaining the apparent high reqs they want for the weapon.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2436	Posted - 2013.09.26 10:12:00 - [3] - Quote Dehlia Metii wrote: I'd be in favor of adding ANY more MLT items, since they seemed to have dropped the idea post-release (how many MLT items can you name that came out AFTER 5/14?). An Assault version of the Scrambler would probably ease people into the game better than a charge-shot overheat-machine anyway. There are other threads mentioning adding more MLT variants and racial equipment for starter fits. I'd noticed that there was a logistical issue with the scrambler rifle in particular fitting-wise. So, I figured I'd make a post specifically for it to present how they can circumvent that problem while still staying in tune with their stat-scheme for the weapon in general. It also presents a way for new player to use a "different" racial weapon, but still have a full-auto rifle which is likely more welcoming to a new player. I think of it as both a NPE and balancing suggestion.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2458	Posted - 2013.09.26 12:48:00 - [4] - Quote Nikea Nei wrote: I like this. Ideally they should introduce MLT variants every time they release a new weapon. You did the numbers work for them too, no excuses, CCP! The sticking point for me with racial suits is AV: there's only two light AV weapons. Caldari anti-armor would have Swarms, and Gallente anti-armor would have Plasma Cannons (would a standard even fit on the MLT Gallente?). That leaves Amarr and Minmatar without actual race-based AV options. Arguably, the Minmatar can replace the Sniper rifle with the Precision rifle when it comes out though (I'm assuming). I wouldn't think the Laser Rifle would be a good replacement for the Sniper Rifle though. There's aways to go before there's real racial parity in weapons even with the rifles/pistols. It's silly in context to think the Amarr wouldn't develop any AV weapons too. I'd like to see a broader range of weapons across the races as well, though I must admit my imagination fails me a bit on some parts. The breakdown currently is something like: Minmatar: Combat Rifle Flaylock Mass Driver Precision Rifle SMG racial melee Caldari: Sniper Rifle Rail Rifle Bolt Pistol Magsec SMG Swarm Launcher Nova Knives Gallente: Plasma Rifle Shotgun Plasma Cannon Ion Pistol racial melee Amarr: Laser Rifle Scrambler Rifle Scrambler Pistol racial melee I think that's right? (just counting light weapons/sidearms, since 2 missing heavy weapons are planned - that would be parity for heavy weapons in the strictest sense) Obviously, some of those are just "announced", but either way it's pretty lopsided. So... yeah, there's some obvious capability gaps in there. The lack of any AV for two races (and the pathetic quality of the Plasma Cannon) is a bit jarring. The Amarr have the fewest weapons "planned". I thought something like a chinese fire lance (long, gold shaft firing thick high intensity laser blasts in limited quantities) might make for an interesting melee or AV weapon for the Amarr. However, I'm somewhat at a loss as far as other "laser-y" weapons to finish them out. How might you distinguish a "laser" sniper rifle from a laser rifle or a sniper rifle, for example? Likewise, is there a need for other races to have a direct shotgun equivalent? A direct mass driver equivalent? (AMARR DISCO BALL LAUNCHER - GO!!!) How do you get around the fact Blaster-tech is intended to be short-range fast-high-damage when making a sniping Gallente equivalent? I'd like to see the races have equal numbers of weapons (WITH MLT VARIANTS AT RELEASE!!). I also think they all need a racial AV-type if nothing else, otherwise we're supposed to believe the Amarr and Minmatar had conflicts with vehicles prior to finding the other races, but they'd just leave the battlefield because they had no AV weapons. Aside from missing AV, I'm not sure how I'd fill out the line-ups though. Perhaps slightly different weapons (as the Magsec is to the SMG I assume) wouldn't be too bad, though as mentioned, I don't know how a laser sniper rifle would work really, and I don't know about the idea of a "laser shotgun" or what-have-you.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2470	Posted - 2013.09.26 14:15:00 - [5] - Quote Melai For'Aiur wrote: Is this a new weapon idea thread, or a MLT Assault Scrambler thread? The latter, but if the end-goal is filling out starter fits in racially appropriate fashions, then it bears some consideration that weapon types are missing. It's possible the roles themselves are not particularly compelling (Frontline, Medic, Sniper, Anti-armor), but some sort of basic-assault and some sort of AV are probably needed regardless. The sniper serves the role of giving even new players some ability to strike back at snipers (which could otherwise kill new players with impunity until they bought and made sniping fits). To finish out the current starter fits: Caldari Front/Medic: Rail Rifle, Bolt Pistol/Magsec? Caldari AV: Swarm Launcher, " " Caldari Sniper: Sniper Rifle, " " Minmatar Front/Medic: Combat Rifle, Flaylock/SMG Minmatar AV: ????, " " Minmatar Sniper: Precision Rifle?, " " Gallente Front/Medic: Plasma AR, Ion Pistol Gallente AV: Plasma Cannon, " " Gallente Sniper: ????, " " Amarr Front/Medic: See OP (MLT Ass. Scrambler), Scrambler Pistol Amarr AV: ????, " " Amarr Sniper: ????. " " There are definite holes; I was just showing how to fill one of them. Even so, others have suggested the starter fits are a bit stale/unimaginative and don't really show off the range of dust roles (they're all assault-types after all). I'm just trying to angle towards completing the would-be racial fits we have at least. There's an argument for some sort of base-logi fit too (Fossil is the only current MLT option).
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2483	Posted - 2013.09.26 20:38:00 - [6] - Quote If people have ideas for missing racial variants (AV, etc.), I'd be interested to hear them though.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2494	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:30:00 - [7] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Do Amarr only manufacture lasers in EVE? I don't play EVE, and I try to mostly base my perception of the racial differences in Dust of what devs have said here. Google tells me there's Khanid (Amarr) Ships that use missiles (based off Caldari apparently), but that doesn't seem entirely appropriate for ground-based AV (Amarr would've developed that in their own conflicts prior to ever meeting other races). It's not clear to me if EVE weapons have branding in the same way that Dust ones do, or at least the flavor text on things like laser turrets does little to indicate who developed them. The ships have bonuses, the weapons seem more like passive receivers of the various bonuses available. So, I have know idea what the Amarr manufacture in EVE (could be anything I guess), but their weapon specialties seem to be more defined by their ship bonuses as near as I can tell. I did see a "crystal" for use with lasers that only did Electro-magnetic (no thermal damage). Though it's unclear to me how useful or desired a weapon would be in Dust if it did only shield damage (no armor). I guess that'd be like a "flux" gun. It might be more palatable if it did at least some nominal damage to armor, like 180% shield damage, 20% armor damage. That's probably not a practical AV or Sniper replacement weapon though.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2587	Posted - 2013.10.01 15:27:00 - [8] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: isnt the amarr laser rifle the version of the sniper rifle?.. it does well in mid to long range engagements... and i hate the plasma cannon idea for av...on gallente. it is anti infantry not anti vehicle.. which is why its crap against all vehicles right now. The Laser Rifle, unfortunately/fortunately depending on your opinion I guess, doesn't even come close to being comparable to a Sniper Rifle. One is scoped with a range of 600m, the other has something like a red-dot sight and an optimum range of 85m. It doesn't come close to the sort of weapon you'd need to counter-snipe, etc. The scope of optimum range is fairly narrow as well, compared to a sniper rifle, since it's about 19m (66m-85m). Laser Rifle seems closer to a specialty weapon like a Shotgun than a practical utility weapon like a Sniper Rifle.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2609	Posted - 2013.10.02 12:30:00 - [9] - Quote The Sniper Rifle bit is a bit harder to make interesting/useful variants with in general... The minmatar Sniper (possibly Precision Rifle) is presumably just... a precision rifle of some sort. I don't even know how you'd make a Gallente one and keep it blaster-tech and lower range somehow without breaking lore. Maybe a Gallente one would fire drones.... An Amarr Sniper would be a super long-range pulse laser I guess. Another possibility is that the current Sniper rifle "variants" are actually knock-offs of potential racial snipers like with the ARs, and a Charge Rifle is the Amarr variant, the tactical is... Gallente or Minmatar... and there aren't any others I guess. Not sure how it would all work. It's more important to have the racial diversity and function than for the weapons to scream "interesting" though.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2626	Posted - 2013.10.03 16:45:00 - [10] - Quote On that note, I guess you could make a "Burst" Sniper rifle, technically. That would be an interesting variant for Minmatar use.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2639	Posted - 2013.10.04 17:01:00 - [11] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: More militia everything. Just, do it. A simple stat change, removal of skill req.s, and reduce price. Simple. I think. 99% of the time it is. I mostly made this post for the special case of the Scrambler Rifle. But, yeah, should have MLT version of everything.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2686	Posted - 2013.10.08 11:22:00 - [12] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: I'd like one of these MLT Scrambler Rifles. God, I hate waiting. They'll be doing feedback for the new rifles soon-ish. So, I think that would be the best time to stress the importance of MLT versions. From what the test server had, there were no MLT versions of the Combat Rifle or Rail Rifle. Without MLT versions, you can guarantee they won't be added to Starter fits, etc. So, make your voice heard on MLT versions when they make that post!!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2698	Posted - 2013.10.10 12:51:00 - [13] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Still want this - let's see it in the weapon write-up... Hmm, it's probably about time for that to be showing up.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2784	Posted - 2013.10.17 16:15:00 - [14] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Still want this - let's see it in the weapon write-up... Hmm, it's probably about time for that to be showing up. Grossly overestimated that from the whole "next few days" statements about weapon changed over a month ago.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2913	Posted - 2013.11.01 14:34:00 - [15] - Quote Looking at the database of infantry weapons that are I guess "in testing", there are a lot of things we haven't seen (red dot breach AR, STD/PRO burst Scrambler pistols, drone weapons, etc.), but not a single new MLT weapon.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3014	Posted - 2013.11.07 13:49:00 - [16] - Quote A reminder to CCP, new players need things like MLT versions of weapons to ease them into the game. The alternative is something like making alts to try weapons which isn't an efficient use of time. The more time spent on a single character, the more investment new players will have in the game.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3015	Posted - 2013.11.07 14:02:00 - [17] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: A reminder to CCP, new players need things like MLT versions of weapons to ease them into the game. The alternative is something like making alts to try weapons which isn't an efficient use of time. The more time spent on a single character, the more investment new players will have in the game. Also, with militia weapons, it means you can put them on starter fits. Yessir. That was the original thrust of this post, solving the stat problem of a MLT Scrambler for CCP, since it breaks the suit if the PG goes any higher than the current STD. I have a dream... where children of every race can use starter fits with the weapons their races actually make.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3063	Posted - 2013.11.19 13:21:00 - [18] - Quote You know what we need with new weapons? A full set of MLT versions. You shouldn't be adding the new guns to the game without them. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3070	Posted - 2013.11.22 12:39:00 - [19] - Quote They could make all the MLT variants assault-type if they really wanted I guess. There's a sort of parity in that, though it's a tad dull. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3085	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:37:00 - [20] - Quote Resurrecting this. Got our new rifles announced, and still no MLT variants in sight/planned for the stuff that was released at game launch. Crunch some numbers and get those MLT variants out. The impact of having everyone start with a Gallente rifle is likely huge on new player preferences as they level their characters. Join my cult.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3091	Posted - 2013.12.20 12:57:00 - [21] - Quote Not surprised exactly that they didn't implement this simple bonus without warning, but they really should be doing this sort of thing just for consistency and better NPE. Also, change the Assault Rifle (and possibly Combat Rifle) names to something that makes sense in context... Blaster, Plasma, Projectile, Auto... whatever... it's silly as-is. I realize that's a completely separate issue, but it's also part of the NPE in the same way as having proper racial rifles on starter fits would be. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3193	Posted - 2013.12.30 17:46:00 - [22] - Quote This is still a good idea. The NPE suffers for forcing all the players into a weapon paradigm that predates the official release of the game, and it funnels newer players down a certain route if they can only try certain weapons without spending money/SP. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3193	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:51:00 - [23] - Quote This is still relevant, given the lack of racial differences on starter fits... but existence of racial gear that could fill those slots. With the release of 1.8 we'll see the Ion and Bolt Pistol. Every race will have a sidearm. It's time to fix those starter fits. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3302	Posted - 2014.01.25 19:04:00 - [24] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Dehlia Metii wrote: I'd be in favor of adding ANY more MLT items, since they seemed to have dropped the idea post-release (how many MLT items can you name that came out AFTER 5/14?). An Assault version of the Scrambler would probably ease people into the game better than a charge-shot overheat-machine anyway. all theyed have to do is sligh apperance change and increase pg/cpu for a mlt version The point of the first post was to explain why increasing the PG/CPU on a Scrambler rifle would break a MLT suit, because the fitting on the Scrambler rifle is too high. Since the Assault Scrambler rifle has lower fitting, I made a theoretical assault version that I could bump up the fitting on. Also, many MLT weapons also have lower stats other than fitting (ammo capacity, reload, etc.). Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3306	Posted - 2014.01.27 06:18:00 - [25] - Quote Let's put some more consideration towards proper racial starter fits... Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3306	Posted - 2014.01.27 10:14:00 - [26] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: While your at it, all militia gear should be unaffected by skills. This way it incentivises the use of normal gear which is far superior. You can then run free mlt suits but at the expense of skill buffs. MLT suits already lack role bonuses, and are inferior to the various "STD" BPOs for that reason. The fact they have lower fitting and fewer slots also already compensates pretty well for the fact you have access to some "free" ones. MLT weapons not seeing buffs is a more intriguing proposition from a balance perspective, because they often have little more than fitting differences. I'd prefer a middle ground I think, where the weapon might still benefit from the operation bonus in full, but receive a reduced/limited bonus from sub-skills. Fitting optimization, Max Ammo, Reload, and Proficiency could all be limited in some fashion (50% of bonus, 0% bonus, etc.). That would leave a weapon with a Light/Heavy/Side Weapon Operation fitting bonus, an operation bonus, but limit the skill impact on the rest of it. Maybe. It depends on what the aim is here I suppose. If it's to limit the usefulness of starter-fits, then perhaps they could limit the debuff to the default (yellow-outline gear) in starter fits. The starter fits themselves can already be retro-fitted by people with BPOs to have STD quality weapons, etc. Their standard weapons wouldn't be impacted by this, and it effectively gives an advantage to older players as far as making ISK. It also hampers poorer players that use MLT items to save money (the ones outside of starter fits actually having a cost of course). Really, there already is a fair incentive to use normal gear. A large part of that is the lack of militia options. It's possible some Militia items could use a stat adjustment, but I think it's also very possible to make some viably nerfed versions of things we don't currently have MLT versions of (all the missing weapons... flaylock, plasma cannon, scrambler, rail, combat, bolt pistol, ion pistol, magsec, scanner, etc.). It would make deciding how to advance your character an easier prospect for a new player. As it stands now, you can't even afford the skillbooks to open a weapon skill when you make a character, and your only options to try things outside of the current starter sets and militia options are "buy aurum" or "suck it up and skill into something at random". Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3334	Posted - 2014.02.06 05:02:00 - [27] - Quote Dunce Masterson wrote: the Amarr starter suit the militia medium frame needs a low slot with a armor rep in it. the amarr medium frames militia and higher need to have the same number of module slots has the rest of the other races witch is 7 3 at militia 4 at basic 5 at advanced and 7 at prototype. This is separate from the topic, but worth addressing. If you've been watching the new suit layouts as seen her in the feedback forums, there's been a shift in focus on the Amarr suits. The Sentinel went from an even-split dual tanker to a straight-out armor tanker (though he was already low-slot focused). The Amarr Commando's hp and slot had a similar shift towards weighting the hp towards armor and the slots towards low. All the races have equal slots in the new suit setups, they just differ in the other stats, bonuses, and what sort of low/high apportioning they're getting. It seems likely, considering all that, that the Amarr medium frames will: A) have equal H/L slots to the other races on the new logistics/assault variants B) be more weighted towards low slots considering (similar to gallente militia then I guess, possibly a 1H 2L though) In light of that, my request for a MLT "Assault" Scrambler in particular may not be needed. The stats/suit adjustments away from the pg reqs, etc. of two damage mods could leave the Amarr Medium MLT suit able to wield a regular scrambler rifle with inflated stats. I can only make my feedback/suggestions on current knowledge though, and we still don't have the new assault/logistics numbers. When they release the proposed new numbers for Assaults and Logistics, I'll make an edit to indicate possible stats on a MLT "semi-auto" Scrambler instead, though there's still a rationale I think for providing every race with an assault variant in particular for the purposes of parity and accessibility. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3411	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:01:00 - [28] - Quote Again, I'll point out that if base medium frame/assault suit stats change, then it could be possible for a std scrambler to fit on an Amarr with inflated "MLT" stats. We still don't know what those new suit stats may look like. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3464	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:41:00 - [29] - Quote This got revisited somewhat recently when IWS asked for suggested builds for starter fits that incorporated racial weapons. One thing that was made clear is that the Amarr MLT setup in general is very awkward for an armor tanking race (2H no Lows). It probably misrepresents the race somewhat. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.

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