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Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
347
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
To counter the dominating AV in its current state. Thank you. |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1961
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi |
XxWarlordxX97
Ancient Exiles
4614
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dropship are OP I can't one shot them with my forge gun |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
347
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi
Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. |
True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2219
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Ever seen Black Hawk Down? |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1961
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top.
Sorry for the quick assumption, thats what it seems like most pilots want And really I dont think getting shot down by one of those is that outrageous, aircraft are generally pretty fragile things You want to talk adding flares and other counter measures though Im all for that but just throwing on more resistance and health is a bad way to balance IMO |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
347
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Ever seen Black Hawk Down?
Yeah, I remember one guy getting killed by one bullet from one assault rifle. Because if you're thinking one RPG can take out a helicopter, then one bullet should be able to take out one guy. Oh wait, it's a video game and your character can withstand full clips of assault rifle fire. You're saying vehicles shouldn't do the same? |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
347
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Sorry for the quick assumption, thats what it seems like most pilots want And really I dont think getting shot down by one of those is that outrageous, aircraft are generally pretty fragile things You want to talk adding flares and other counter measures though Im all for that but just throwing on more resistance and health is a bad way to balance IMO
Flares maybe able to counter swarms but I don't see them stopping a hand-held bolt of plasma travelling at speeds of thousands of m/s. The only way to balance things out is add an incredible shake on charge for the forger, longer charge times or a reduced damage fix. Or just beef up the dropship to be able to withstand a single forge gun clip.
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True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2220
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:True Adamance wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Ever seen Black Hawk Down? Yeah, I remember one guy getting killed by one bullet from one assault rifle. Because if you're thinking one RPG can take out a helicopter, then one bullet should be able to take out one guy. Oh wait, it's a video game and your character can withstand full clips of assault rifle fire. You're saying vehicles shouldn't do the same? Just pointing out that helicopters go down easy... and admittedly you are taking fire from a slug fired at hypersonic speeds..... |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
347
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:True Adamance wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Ever seen Black Hawk Down? Yeah, I remember one guy getting killed by one bullet from one assault rifle. Because if you're thinking one RPG can take out a helicopter, then one bullet should be able to take out one guy. Oh wait, it's a video game and your character can withstand full clips of assault rifle fire. You're saying vehicles shouldn't do the same? Just pointing out that helicopters go down easy... and admittedly you are taking fire from a slug fired at hypersonic speeds.....
Except a Dropship isn't a helicopter. It's a VTOL craft, granted but with its advanced shielding and armor systems, I think it should be a bit more survivable than a helicopter.. It also doesn't have rotating blades for propulsion / lift, so that takes out the threat of anything hitting a blade and the whole thing goes down. People go down easy too, you know. As far as the game goes, Dropships are just not cost-efficient, ranging from 500,000 - 1,200,000 ISK whereas the best forge guns are not even 100,000 ISK. "oh but a 1000 dollar RPG can shoot down a 500,000 dollar helicopter hurr durr ' well this is a game where a soldier can fire laser rifles without the gun fusing to his skin when it overheats... soooooo
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itsssssss meeeeeeeeeee
WE ARE LEGENDS
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:True Adamance wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Ever seen Black Hawk Down? Yeah, I remember one guy getting killed by one bullet from one assault rifle. Because if you're thinking one RPG can take out a helicopter, then one bullet should be able to take out one guy. Oh wait, it's a video game and your character can withstand full clips of assault rifle fire. You're saying vehicles shouldn't do the same? Oh Snap! |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Seraphim Auxiliaries
407
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah AV is so fair in every way..or NOT. |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
564
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Yeah AV is so fair in every way..or NOT. What does a render bug have anything to do with balance?
Thats like saying shotguns should get buffed because half the shots dont register. |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
348
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 23:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Doc Noah wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Yeah AV is so fair in every way..or NOT. What does a render bug have anything to do with balance? Thats like saying shotguns should get buffed because half the shots dont register.
Because, my gallente friend, if we can't see infantry because they haven't rendered, how can we counter the threat of AV? Or prepare to avoid the anti-vehicle users entirely? I mean, they already wield weapons that have an unfair advantage of power over dropships, and now they don't even render! It's widening the gap even more, costing us, as Judge pointed out in his video, even more ISK! Nice video by the way, Judge.. as always! |
Kane Fyea
DUST University Ivy League
1678
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 23:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Sorry for the quick assumption, thats what it seems like most pilots want And really I dont think getting shot down by one of those is that outrageous, aircraft are generally pretty fragile things You want to talk adding flares and other counter measures though Im all for that but just throwing on more resistance and health is a bad way to balance IMO Flares maybe able to counter swarms but I don't see them stopping a hand-held bolt of plasma travelling at speeds of thousands of m/s. The only way to balance things out is add an incredible shake on charge for the forger, longer charge times or a reduced damage fix. Or just beef up the dropship to be able to withstand a single forge gun clip. You do know forges in this game don't travel at thousands of m/s. If it was like that then it would instantly hit you. |
low genius
the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
fly smarter |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
564
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:\Because, my gallente friend, if we can't see infantry because they haven't rendered, how can we counter the threat of AV? Or prepare to avoid the anti-vehicle users entirely? I mean, they already wield weapons that have an unfair advantage of power over dropships, and now they don't even render! It's widening the gap even more, costing us, as Judge pointed out in his video, even more ISK! Nice video by the way, Judge.. as always!
Quote:What does a render bug have anything to do with balance?
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Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
348
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote:What does a render bug have anything to do with balance?
[/quote]
Its a bug that's contributing to the downfall of dropships. I know it's not on purpose, bugs are bugs.. it's just a problem we have to deal with as well as over-powering AV. |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
348
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
low genius wrote:fly smarter I am probably the most 'seasoned' pilot, and i'm one of the best. There's only so much 'smart flying' you can do in order to make a difference on the battlefield |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
348
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kane Fyea wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Sorry for the quick assumption, thats what it seems like most pilots want And really I dont think getting shot down by one of those is that outrageous, aircraft are generally pretty fragile things You want to talk adding flares and other counter measures though Im all for that but just throwing on more resistance and health is a bad way to balance IMO Flares maybe able to counter swarms but I don't see them stopping a hand-held bolt of plasma travelling at speeds of thousands of m/s. The only way to balance things out is add an incredible shake on charge for the forger, longer charge times or a reduced damage fix. Or just beef up the dropship to be able to withstand a single forge gun clip. You do know forges in this game don't travel at thousands of m/s. If it was like that then it would instantly hit you.
okay, yeah fair enough, but the full travel time of a forge round is less than half a second, so that's still pretty damn fast. |
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FATPrincess - XOXO
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
566
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Actually the transport chopper in BF3 has the most HP. Dropships are medium vehicles yet they go down as fast as a light vehicle. While I agree on a HP buff, I think numbers should be more precise than just 50% to shields or w/e. Hopefully 1.6 will balance everything.
-XOXO |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Seraphim Auxiliaries
409
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 08:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
TLDR at the end
The render issue may not be a bug. It might be the result of the way the engine works when challenged by the speed dropships travel at. Why is it relevant to this post? Because the interplay between players is used to do a balance pass. How can the developers make conclusions about how easily a swarm should lock; on or how effective the LOS is at breaking the lock on if pilots don't seem to be using structures to break that lock? And we don't do that because we can see them.
What about damage and the TTK of a swarm vs dropship? Going by the ADS vs Swarm fight in that video I died really really easily. But that's only because i charged head first at a group of players with swarms and nanohives. But i only charged because they did not render. If they had I would have hung low and gone round the back and not died. (also did you see i still had over 150 health when i died)
Bottom Line and TLDR :
This means on the server now are statistics about drosphip vs infantry based on faulty mechanics. Balance against how it is now, then when the mechanics are fixed the balance may get broken. The server says we die all the time so buff our HP by 200%. But our deaths are not related fully to the HP, the visibility of our counters is also key. So when the visability is fixed we are suddenly invincible. |
Ryme Intrinseca
Seraphim Auxiliaries
41
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 08:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
With those stats Dropships would be God Mode. It would take more than a clip of proto forge to take you down, and by the time the FGer has reloaded any competent pilot would be out of range and repping. But I agree a smaller buff is needed. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3505
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
XxWarlordxX97 wrote:Dropship are OP I can't one shot them with my forge gun Yon know you love us really. |
LudiKure ninda
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jeah I want my Python to hawe 6700 shield with 40% damage resistance,and a small turrent that has 650 dmg and 400 splash damage with 5 meters blast radius
And one question.. do you increase splash damage with dmg mods?? for small mislle turent??? |
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
199
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Foxhound you are pulling out assault dropships on public matches, you do silly things like flying underneath a building and then complain that you cant escape cause you got yourself into a nasty situation. And you forget that the dropships can outrun swarms quite easy so the forgegun is the only weapon at the moment which can shot you down. So you want to remove/nerf the only weapon system that is a threat to you. |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Seraphim Auxiliaries
417
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dropships cannot outrun swarms easily. That friend is a myth. The circumstances have to be just so. An afterburner is the only way to get a 90% chance of escape. The only other way is to be is a position where you are of no use. You can escape but what good were you doing anyway. It's like saying that a shotgunner can avoid death easily, but he has to hide all match and compromise his fit to do it.
I could quite easily post videos where i am already traveling at full speed (non afterburner) and swarms still catch me. Sometimes its only one or two but you normally get hit. I even have footage of me flying at full speed toward a group when the swarms are launched from just in-front of me. They go behind me then catch up.
Perhaps from the ground it looks like the DS escapes, but it only looks that way. I'm doing a swarm video at the moment. I hope to show those that have no knowledge like your you what they are really like. |
Racro 01 Arifistan
The Surrogates Of War
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 12:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
get a logi drop ship. i have full turret skills and it takes me 3 shots to down a logi drop ship. this is useing a particle cannon. if drop ships are getting hp and resistence buff tanks should get it to. all vehicles are sitting ducks vs proto av. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3505
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 12:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Dropships cannot outrun swarms easily. That friend is a myth. The circumstances have to be just so. An afterburner is the only way to get a 90% chance of escape. The only other way is to be is a position where you are of no use. You can escape but what good were you doing anyway. It's like saying that a shotgunner can avoid death easily, but he has to hide all match and compromise his fit to do it.
I could quite easily post videos where i am already traveling at full speed (non afterburner) and swarms still catch me. Sometimes its only one or two but you normally get hit. I even have footage of me flying at full speed toward a group when the swarms are launched from just in-front of me. They go behind me then catch up.
Perhaps from the ground it looks like the DS escapes, but it only looks that way. I'm doing a swarm video at the moment. I hope to show those that have limited and incomplete knowledge like you Bright Cloud you what they are really like. Yeah as someone who has experimented with speed tanking dropships I have to say that the only way you can outrun a swarm volley is to fill your low slots with jovians and activate an afterburner in the same half second that a volley is launched in, otherwise you get one of two things, the volley whams in to you like normal, or they do a weird trailing thing and hit one at a time. That said I've found that if you manauver the dropship right you can make the swarms do things like spirals, greatly increasing the distance they travel. |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
360
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 15:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:Foxhound you are pulling out assault dropships on public matches, you do silly things like flying underneath a building and then complain that you cant escape cause you got yourself into a nasty situation. And you forget that the dropships can outrun swarms quite easy so the forgegun is the only weapon at the moment which can shot you down. So you want to remove/nerf the only weapon system that is a threat to you.
Guilty. Yes I pull dropships out in public matches, it's safer than pulling them out in Planetary Conquest games. I like to do silly things and survive (most of the time), and yes I have lost them due to recklessness. The dropship without an afterburner, the one I fly, does not out-fly swarms. Speed for speed, they'll always catch up with me if i'm in range. This depends on my location in relation to the swarm launcher; if I'm in a certain proximity, he'll get me if I'm not already moving away from him, and if he doesn't get me, that means the swarms detonated before they could reach me because I passed their flight limit. It's not that easy to out run a good swarm launcher, let alone two or three!
And pulling them out in public matches is safer, as the better corporations in PC will always pull out proto AV or will have a railgun tanker, usually unreachable in their redline. It's also my playstyle, as I'm not that great on the ground, even though I do sometimes go on killing sprees in my heavy suit, but I'd rather stay airborne because that's where I belong. |
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Gallente Mercenary 08551380
The Vanguardians
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 16:45:00 -
[31] - Quote
Quote:okay, yeah fair enough, but the full travel time of a forge round is less than half a second, so that's still pretty damn fast.
"Powered by a GeminiGäó microcapacitor, the Forge Gun utilizes a stored electric charge to fire kinetic slugs at speeds in excess of 7,000 m/s, " |
Pvt Numnutz
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
235
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 20:43:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ahhh vehicle balance. Much has been said here, some good, some bad, some stupid. Foxhound, I think 50% is over doing it a bit. Unless you want to see dropships go FOTM, which I am firmly against. It would be nice to get some more HP but just enough to make us more survivable, not a 50% increase. Most pilots I know, including you and judge and gbghg would destroy with ease......we would be no better than a forge gunner!
Maybe the introduction of medium moduals for our medium vehicles would be enough to give the dropship the stats it needs. Judge made a really good point on Rendering, we need to see not only our surroundings (F***ing new camera) but our counters as well, its nice we have the blue glow for forges now. Swarms I can't see, or find where they shot from. Hell half the time I can't even see where I got hit! (F***ing new camera!!) When they do fix the render and the camera dropships will have a much better chance.
Now I do agree some kind of counter measures system is desperatly needed. A forge can 2 shot me in under 3 seconds. 5 games of grinding on the ground for a 3 second death, yeaaahhh....right. Best we can do for now is keep using teamwork.
Quick note on forge gunners, AV says to use teamwork to beat their AV when in dropship, ok load up some troops find him drop troops. Worst case senario, he shoots down the dropship then kills all the troops you drop. Pilots ask that teamwork should be needed to take down their vehicles, AV freaks out at the suggestion that they have to work with a swarm launcher and that their forge gun is UP because it can't one hit a dropship. I still remember a gastuns that destroyed my proto fit python in one shot then took out two other dropships and a tank in 6 seconds......so where are my officer pythons? And officer missile turrets? Honestly forge gunning is far too easy, especially when you get to proto. Doesn't look fun to me anyway, but that's because us pilots have an incredibly stressful job, one where teamwork is nessasary to just bring your ship home. I like the challange, but if forge guns are going to stay where they are then dropships should get a massive price drop, because if one man can solo my 1.2 mil dropship, I should be able to afford calling in 2-3 per game. |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 01:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
WE NEED A BUFF :( |
Tectonic Fusion
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
243
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 02:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
XxWarlordxX97 wrote:Dropship are OP I can't one shot them with my forge gun LOL at your aim. If you can't 3 hit KO them at 200m your ****. |
Ace Starburst
PiZzA DuDeS
27
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Posted - 2013.09.25 02:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
What about dropship cloaking? As a forge gunner I would like the challenge of shooting down flying predators.
It might encourage people to start using them as sky murder taxis and squishing unsuspecting mercs, but I'm pretty cool with that too due to their cost. |
Foxhound Elite
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
363
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 02:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ace Starburst wrote:What about dropship cloaking? As a forge gunner I would like the challenge of shooting down flying predators.
It might encourage people to start using them as sky murder taxis and squishing unsuspecting mercs, but I'm pretty cool with that too due to their cost.
Even with cloaking, they'll be easy to spot with cloak 'shimmer' effect. It would help alot, sure, but a sharp-eyed forge gunner could still 1-2-3 pop em'. It's just the ratio (rendering issues included) of dropship vs forge gunner kills is 90 / 10 in the forgers favour. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3533
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 11:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ace Starburst wrote:What about dropship cloaking? As a forge gunner I would like the challenge of shooting down flying predators.
It might encourage people to start using them as sky murder taxis and squishing unsuspecting mercs, but I'm pretty cool with that too due to their cost. Who needs cloaking, just change the rendering so dropships are the last thing to render, way better than any in game cloak. |
Zatara Rought
TeamPlayers EoN.
1175
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 12:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Delta 749 wrote:No Add fighter jets and attack choppers since thats what you guys really want, drop ship is just some cheap ass sky taxi Not really, I want to be able to transport / pickup my teammates without getting two/three shotted out of the sky. Also, I get alot of kills in my Python as it is, I don't need to have a gunship to wreck the battlefield. But to be able to be shot down by one forge gunner is a bit over the top. Sorry for the quick assumption, thats what it seems like most pilots want And really I dont think getting shot down by one of those is that outrageous, aircraft are generally pretty fragile things You want to talk adding flares and other counter measures though Im all for that but just throwing on more resistance and health is a bad way to balance IMO
LOGIC!!!! You sir must leave. Logic is not allowed on these forums. |
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