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The Attorney General
ZionTCD
1054
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Posted - 2013.09.22 19:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I tank.
Lately, everyone is getting up in arms, and the tankers and the infantry are at each others throats, with a fairly consistent back and forth ensues between certain regular parties.
It has all gotten quite dull. There needs to be an effort to reach consensus, perhaps not on concrete details, but at least on the basic principles of AV and how it should interact with vehicles.
Here are some things I have been thinking about lately. Some of these things will upset tankers, and some will upset infantry. Hopefully you all get annoyed equally, and we can make some progress.
1. The heavy should be the primary AV specialist.
Ideally, they should have the best tool for the job, currently the forge gun. The suit itself needs protection from infantry, and is mobility limited. This enforces the need for one heavy suit to focus on tactics to tackle one tank. It also means that a tank must think tactically to avoid getting slapped by a heavy.
A well fitted heavy should be an effective counter to a tank. It then becomes a fight between the tank, which has greater mobility and HP, and the heavy, which has the potential to ambush, trap, use height, etc.
In this type of scenario, you could even bump up FG direct damage if you raised fitting costs to minimize protection on the fat suit. Or you could leave the damage as it is, and reduce fitting costs, to allow a heavy the chance to sit and trade with a tank.
2. Swarms are really pathetic.
The entire idea of how swarms work is completely silly. I don't care about any of the alleged reasons behind it, the behaviour of swarms ruins any type of engagement, because it is a no brainer. 2 guys with MLT swams can overwhelm almost any tank in less than 6 seconds. It is absurd. Beyond that, they are largely ineffective against their primary target, which I would assume to be DS's and LAV's, and instead get spammed onto tanks with hilarious results for the infantry, but deeply unpleasant for the tankers.
1 heavy with a FG should be able to output at least 3 swarm users output over the same time. This means a drastic nerf to the swarms. This promotes the proper relationship of suits, with tanks being powerful against infantry, AV being very strong against tanks, and the AV troop(heavy) being weak to infantry.
Non heavy suits should have an AV option, but it should not be the teams primary choice for AV work.
3. Nuclear baseballs.
I get it that infantry need an option for a rampaging tank on a spawn point. All I think needs to be done is to ramp up the fitting costs on the AV grenades and lower damage levels at ADV. I don't mind if someone wants to use a set of Lai Dais to deal me 6k damage. I can appreciate the balls. What I DO mind is them being able to effectively roll that option while having a very viable anti-infantry fit as well.
Packing AV grenades should mean that the infantry has made a choice to sacrifice either tank, or their anti-infantry capability in order to pack that type of AV damage.
The other way to do it is make them low damage, but instead of three, you get 5. That way, they can be spammed to keep vehicles at bay, but not kill anything but stupid tank drivers.
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The Attorney General
ZionTCD
1058
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Posted - 2013.09.23 04:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kane Fyea wrote:1. Anti vehicle should be for ANY suit. If you make the heavy the best at AV then that would hurt overall diversity.
2. I agree with the swarms being stupid part but like I said heavies shouldn't be the only viable AV option (I want an RPG type of rocket launcher. The plasma cannon does not work like an RPG)
3. AV grenades should stay but they shouldn't be nearly as strong as they are.
1. I don't think making the heavy the primary AV hurts diversity. Scouts could still run the AV nade and swarm combo and do the fairy dance that they love so much, they just would need to bring two of them to assure a tank goes down.
By making the heavy the primary AV troop, you actually help diversity. When everyone can just drop 1 million SP into swarms, it means no one strictly needs to spec heavy, because the HMG isn't worth it. Right now the Forge is the only thing great about it. Nerf the splash damage, and it is not OP in anyway, but still very strong.
Heavies also need logis, thereby increasing suit diversity on the field as well. Additionally, a scout is a great counter to a fatty with a FG, so it isn't like there are not more options put out there by having the AV focus shifted to the heavy suit.
2. If the plasma cannon was worth a **** they could just remove the swarms altogether.
BUFF THE PLASMA CANNON!
3. Your call. |
The Attorney General
ZionTCD
1061
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Posted - 2013.09.23 16:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
echo47 wrote:All I see in this post is nerf infantry vs tanks. If I am wrong correct me. This is why infantry can't take complaints by tankers seriously. Very few of these types of posts ask for counters and are too quick to ask nerfs.
So you basically want one v one with a heavy that has less defence than his suit normally affords. A sitting duck with little mobility.
From reading suit descriptions, the heavy is supposed to be my main infantry based opponent. Ideally they should be the only suit that has the tank to stand and trade with a tank.
And yes, I would rather fight an infantry with a super high power straight shooting rail gun than someone who can dip behind cover or jump around while locking me up and then hurl rockets at me.
Are you calling a heavy who I can't see up on a roof top with great sightlines a sitting duck? Although true, he isn't a sitting duck for me. I need infantry help to drop him. The stronger his AV ability, the lower his tank should be. Right now, doing over 2200 damage is perfectly fine, and carrying around 12-1400 HP while doing it is a bit low. Heavies need more HP, and probably a speed bump, but that is for the suit in general, although it would greatly assist them in the AV role.
echo47 wrote:
Why make up numbers, 6 seconds. And lets ignore the fact that those two MLT swarms may have proficiency 4 maybe even 5. And they are very effective on DS's and LAV's. So as infantry we should have to get with in throwing range of a grenade to destroy a tank?
Why do you act like me calling for a damage reduction in swarms will suddenly make them non viable? If you got proto swarm damage by 30% to bring it in line with the other weapon scales, it would not instantly make them useless, it would merely require more thought to their use, or for them to be used by more than one person to kill a tank. One person would still be able to drive off a tank, because only idiots hang around with swarms.
echo47 wrote:
Am I mistaken in thinking that you can sit in your tank in any fit you want. Also, your tank has passenger seats where your team members can sit in the tank in any fit they want. So you can roll out a tank and have a viable anti-infantry fit also. By fitting AV grenades we have made a sacrifice we can't fit explosive grenades that can come in handy against other infantry.
In PC, you are not bringing passengers, and hopping out of your tank suddenly kills you. Coming to a complete stop in order to attempt to shoot an infantry user running at my tank hurling grenades is not an option, not counting the fact that I don't have a dropsuit that is for fighting, I am a tanker. If they would have given me a pilot suit I would be in that and even weaker on the ground.
Giving up a flux or a locus grenade is not enough of a sacrifice for gaining such strong AV capability. Increase fitting costs of AV grenades by 15%
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The Attorney General
ZionTCD
1063
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Posted - 2013.09.24 12:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
echo47 wrote:
Notice how much brighter the flares form forges and swarms are now.
Swarms fired from anything over 150m are almost 100% invisible. This includes anything from fired from 50 above the ground. Forges seem to draw a little further out, but still are largely invisible from 50% of their range out.
echo47 wrote:
Why nerf? Why not think in lines of a counter to swarms? Running around with a swarm launcher and a side arm to defend yourself against other infantry is a big risk. The reward is being able to take out out a tank. Tankers would have more cred if there were more post explaining why the isk cost and sp investments for tanks are too high. The main reason I personally will not spec into them. And again when dealing with swarms, personally I think that is what your squad mates are for. Nerfs IMHO are a cop out on the part of Devs and those who forum post for them. Counters are what make the game interesting and a challenge.
Swarms do not help make the game interesting, and the issue at hand here is the enjoyment level for both parties. Sure, swarms are great fun to use for the infantry, becuase you roll up, huck a couple of Lai Dais and then start spamming your swarms. This makes the infantry feel strong and effective, but it makes tankers feel importent and remind them how fragile their platforms are. The far worse impact is that if one were to use either a missile or blaster tank, you have no put yourself at extreme risk just by not using a rail turret and staying out of FG and mostly out of swarm range. This limits diversity, and creates even more unhappiness because rail gunning is dull, and getting hit by a rail sniper makes infantry rage.
echo47 wrote:
I would not know anything about PC so I shouldn't comment, but I will, Not having a passenger sounds like a bad idea. I get thet there a serious challenges for tankers in this game. But the constant calls to nerf the only weapons we have to keep vehicles at bay need to stop. These are our only counters as good as AR's are the dont stop tank stomps. I am 100% behind the dropping the price and sp investments in tanks. But AV being OP I have not seen proof in actual gameplay that AV weaponry should be nerfed just a lack of teamwork , creativity and sp investment on tankers part.
So do you have any ideas to "fix" tanks other than nerfing AV?
Buff the PLC to make it worthwhile. Buff the fatsuit to make it a better platform for the FG. Buff FG DD.
I am not saying nerf all AV, just the scrub types. The fire and forget swarms should be way below the PLC for damage, not triple them. The AV nade either needs to not home, or get its stats changed. |
The Attorney General
ZionTCD
1066
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Posted - 2013.09.25 05:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
echo47 wrote: Since there are no counters, why not put your thinking cap on and come up with some rather than nerfing, is my point. Thats why tanks are on a team so his team mates can help. How many skill points and how much experience did those tankers have? I come against tanks that I can pop in 2 or three volleys solo. And tanks with 3 AV players and the tank still end up owning the battlefield why because his squad has his back. I am saying simply nerfing one role in an attempt to find "balance" is bogus. What needs to get evaluated and I am sure it is by devs at this point is the overal performance of tanks on the battlefield.Tanks with adequate support and sp investment by the driver are fine, in my opinion.
So tanks have to run with a squad of support, but AV can be run by any suit, even Logis who can support themselves?
Seems fair and all, but maybe if you keep saying that Tanks need to use infantry support, how about infantry uses fat suit support to take out vehicles for them.
I have no problem leashing tanks to infantry, just as long as AV is linked to the fat suit, which cannot carry ammo and is a sitting duck to my infantry.
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