DUST Search - Why is anyone complaining about hardware

Shutter Fly wrote:

xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:

Bubba Salaman wrote:

2. Shooters require more hardware resources than open world RPGs.

Ok, then let me take another example: MAG. 256 players on a single, huge map. Each of these players has its own loadout, there were many more destroyable, repairable objects (MAVs, Bunkers, AA, Mortar Battery, Sensors, Gates, Bridges, tanks, Combustion Towers etc etc) I'm not going to break forum rules talking about another game, I'm just looking for clarifications:

why do this, can happen on ps3? (Thanks UPS United Pwnage Service)

My point is, yes, everyone say that it's difficult to do such things on ps3, but it's not impossible. The hardware can handle it. So it's not an hardware's fault. I tend to agree that on PC MAG could have been better, but still ps3 can handle it.

Keep in mind, MAG pushed the PS3 to its absolute limits, and possibly a bit beyond that. As incredible as it was, it was buggy, unstable, and very likely a remarkable feat of resource management on the hardware level. Have you ever touched a PS3 running a MAG Domination game in the middle of a full platoon objective push? Those things got HOT, really hot, that is the result of the system being pushed further than it should be. Memory has to be constantly shuffled around to avoid conflicts, free space, and ensure it is processed and displayed in a timely manner. Not only is that hard on the system components, it makes the platform a much more difficult and much less stable development environment.

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xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 669	Posted - 2013.09.20 16:02:00 - [1] - Quote Why is anyone complaining about hardware limitations, when ps3 can more or less smoothly run huge RPGs like Fallout and Skyrim? Hardware limitations, when ps3 can run MGS5 (mind, it's going to be open world)?
Keri Starlight Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 320	Posted - 2013.09.20 16:27:00 - [2] - Quote I think Kojima's team is working on MGS Ground Zeroes on the PS3 engine (the open world title you're talking about). Pretty sure it's a completely different game from MGS5. Anyway, I agree, the pics from Ground Zeroes are omg amazing... and if we get a new MGO... omg that's gonna be even more amazing! Can't wait for it! Back on topic. I believe people is just waiting for the PS4 to save this game, but it's not even confirmed CCP will move DUST to the PS4... I don't know. However, the PS3 have an incredible potential, I wouldn't complain about the hardware..!
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 672	Posted - 2013.09.20 16:33:00 - [3] - Quote Keri Starlight wrote: I think Kojima's team is working on MGS Ground Zeroes on the PS3 engine (the open world title you're talking about). Pretty sure it's a completely different game from MGS5. Anyway, I agree, the pics from Ground Zeroes are omg amazing... and if we get a new MGO... omg that's gonna be even more amazing! Can't wait for it! Back on topic. I believe people is just waiting for the PS4 to save this game, but it's not even confirmed CCP will move DUST to the PS4... I don't know. However, the PS3 have an incredible potential, I wouldn't complain about the hardware..! Wait wait, I'm really talking about Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain. And yes, a new MGO would be so....awesome, just awesome.
Keri Starlight Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 322	Posted - 2013.09.20 16:38:00 - [4] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Wait wait, I'm really talking about Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain. And yes, a new MGO would be so....awesome, just awesome. Wow, I'm a bit stunned because they said the same thing about Ground Zeroes (being open world). At this point I'm a bit confused... in a positive way, I mean. Yeah, sorry to say this, but I doubt I will have much time for DUST if/whenever we get a new MGO... I absolutely loved that game.
DootDoot Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 68	Posted - 2013.09.20 16:40:00 - [5] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Why is anyone complaining about hardware limitations, when ps3 can more or less smoothly run huge RPGs like Fallout and Skyrim? Hardware limitations, when ps3 can run MGS5 (mind, it's going to be open world)? Memory... it was low the first day they launched the spec's for the ps3.... let alone when the ps3 actually launched. hence why the PS4 is so hardware heavy for a console. Sony learned and didn't want to do it again.
Aaroniero d'Lioncourt The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 91	Posted - 2013.09.20 17:28:00 - [6] - Quote Keri Starlight wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Wait wait, I'm really talking about Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain. And yes, a new MGO would be so....awesome, just awesome. Wow, I'm a bit stunned because they said the same thing about Ground Zeroes (being open world). At this point I'm a bit confused... in a positive way, I mean. Yeah, sorry to say this, but I doubt I will have much time for DUST if/whenever we get a new MGO... I absolutely loved that game. MGS Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain are 'separate' projects that are two parts of one game.
Keri Starlight Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 324	Posted - 2013.09.20 17:30:00 - [7] - Quote Aaroniero d'Lioncourt wrote: Keri Starlight wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Wait wait, I'm really talking about Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain. And yes, a new MGO would be so....awesome, just awesome. Wow, I'm a bit stunned because they said the same thing about Ground Zeroes (being open world). At this point I'm a bit confused... in a positive way, I mean. Yeah, sorry to say this, but I doubt I will have much time for DUST if/whenever we get a new MGO... I absolutely loved that game. MGS Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain are 'separate' projects that are two parts of one game. Oh, thank you! Now I get it!
Bubba Salaman Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 78	Posted - 2013.09.20 18:38:00 - [8] - Quote 1. As a PC player, hahaha, no, the PS3 does not run Skyrim or Fallout as well as you think it does. 2. Shooters require more hardware resources than open world RPGs. Open world RPGs can keep most of the map data on the hard drive and only have the nearby surroundings loaded into RAM in detail. There is much less action going on so less actors have to be put into a scene which massively reduces the amount of data loaded into RAM. Dust has to load 32 players, all of their guns, vehicles, mines, etc. into the battle, which ends up being a hell of a lot more animated parts than what Skyrim has at any given time. Skyrim is ******* huge but if you're in Whiterun, it's not like the game is animating Riften on the other side of the map. The PS3 has plenty of hard drive space for Skyrim to run, but it only has half a gig of RAM. To put that into perspective, Windows 7 uses a full gig of RAM at idle.
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 672	Posted - 2013.09.21 08:45:00 - [9] - Quote Bubba Salaman wrote: 2. Shooters require more hardware resources than open world RPGs. Ok, then let me take another example: MAG. 256 players on a single, huge map. Each of these players has its own loadout, there were many more destroyable, repairable objects (MAVs, Bunkers, AA, Mortar Battery, Sensors, Gates, Bridges, tanks, Combustion Towers etc etc) I'm not going to break forum rules talking about another game, I'm just looking for clarifications: why do this, can happen on ps3? (Thanks UPS United Pwnage Service) My point is, yes, everyone say that it's difficult to do such things on ps3, but it's not impossible. The hardware can handle it. So it's not an hardware's fault. I tend to agree that on PC MAG could have been better, but still ps3 can handle it.
Csikszent Mihalyi DUST University Ivy League 214	Posted - 2013.09.21 09:16:00 - [10] - Quote Yes the PS3 can do a lot better, but that only helps in theory. Getting the best out of its complicated architecture is extremely hard. Unreal Engine doesn't do it well, and expecting CCP to give it a complete overhaul is not realistic at all. Unreal Engine is bound to run a lot better on the PS4, not just because of its massively faster hardware, but also because it got a much more straight forward architecture. DUST is pretty much a perfect match for the PS4 and it would be a shame if it doesn't make the move to it fairly soon. I'd love a version of the game that is identical and compatible, only minus the frame rate issues (perhaps even running at 60 FPS!) and plus the social sharing features (not to mention a better controller for those who use it). Better graphics or additional features could be left until after the PS3 version is being discontinued.

Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 238	Posted - 2013.09.21 09:35:00 - [11] - Quote CCP have said time and time again that they are not GPU bound, the issue is the communication of Matrices and Physics. Skyrim et. Al should not be used as comparison, they are all client based and have zero server interaction!
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 83	Posted - 2013.09.21 10:49:00 - [12] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Bubba Salaman wrote: 2. Shooters require more hardware resources than open world RPGs. Ok, then let me take another example: MAG. 256 players on a single, huge map. Each of these players has its own loadout, there were many more destroyable, repairable objects (MAVs, Bunkers, AA, Mortar Battery, Sensors, Gates, Bridges, tanks, Combustion Towers etc etc) I'm not going to break forum rules talking about another game, I'm just looking for clarifications: why do this, can happen on ps3? (Thanks UPS United Pwnage Service) My point is, yes, everyone say that it's difficult to do such things on ps3, but it's not impossible. The hardware can handle it. So it's not an hardware's fault. I tend to agree that on PC MAG could have been better, but still ps3 can handle it. Keep in mind, MAG pushed the PS3 to its absolute limits, and possibly a bit beyond that. As incredible as it was, it was buggy, unstable, and very likely a remarkable feat of resource management on the hardware level. Have you ever touched a PS3 running a MAG Domination game in the middle of a full platoon objective push? Those things got HOT, really hot, that is the result of the system being pushed further than it should be. Memory has to be constantly shuffled around to avoid conflicts, free space, and ensure it is processed and displayed in a timely manner. Not only is that hard on the system components, it makes the platform a much more difficult and much less stable development environment. Also, as people have been saying, a game system running a game is completely different from a PC. In the PC world, the amount of RAM in the PS3 has been archaic since before the system was even released. When a game is being developed for the PS3, the devs have to follow very confining limitations. They have to ask questions like "Well, I'd LIKE to add this really cool feature that would the players would love, but will it ever cause a situation where more than 500MiB of RAM is needed?" 500MiB is not a lot of space, just running my web browser alone can use over 600MiB of my RAM. On PC, that is barely an issue, I have 16GiB to work with on top of an extra 2GiB dedicated to my GPU. If a player doesn't have enough RAM or processing power on a PC, they can turn down the quality settings, install better components, or they can just face the fact that they can't play the game. On PS3, devs have to walk the line and be constantly wary that they don't overstep the limited bounds they are presented with. Just remember, next time you hit that PS button, don't curse the legion of spinning circles. Be thankful that they aren't eating up your precious gaming memory. Don't be afraid to silently mourn their probable loss on the PS4, the snappy UI will just be hindering your possible gaming experience. (It has been reported that a portion of the PS4's impressive amount of DDR5 RAM will be reserved for the system's UI)
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 673	Posted - 2013.09.21 11:21:00 - [13] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Bubba Salaman wrote: 2. Shooters require more hardware resources than open world RPGs. Ok, then let me take another example: MAG. 256 players on a single, huge map. Each of these players has its own loadout, there were many more destroyable, repairable objects (MAVs, Bunkers, AA, Mortar Battery, Sensors, Gates, Bridges, tanks, Combustion Towers etc etc) I'm not going to break forum rules talking about another game, I'm just looking for clarifications: why do this, can happen on ps3? (Thanks UPS United Pwnage Service) My point is, yes, everyone say that it's difficult to do such things on ps3, but it's not impossible. The hardware can handle it. So it's not an hardware's fault. I tend to agree that on PC MAG could have been better, but still ps3 can handle it. Keep in mind, MAG pushed the PS3 to its absolute limits, and possibly a bit beyond that. As incredible as it was, it was buggy, unstable, and very likely a remarkable feat of resource management on the hardware level. Have you ever touched a PS3 running a MAG Domination game in the middle of a full platoon objective push? Those things got HOT, really hot, that is the result of the system being pushed further than it should be. Memory has to be constantly shuffled around to avoid conflicts, free space, and ensure it is processed and displayed in a timely manner. Not only is that hard on the system components, it makes the platform a much more difficult and much less stable development environment. Listen, my ps3 never gave me any kind of problem with MAG (except random crash with the second update) and it was much less buggy and unstable than Dust, and yes our clan pushed the situation much beyond the situation you described. A full platoon attacking one combustion tower helped by two squads from other two platoons (just for the lulz). Ps3 didn't overheat. The game didn't crash. Now, I'm not saying that we absolutely need a 64 vs 64 game mode with all those bunkers etc, but at least a 32 vs 32 with some kind of feature like destroyable/repairable static objects (walls, doors, bridges, barricades, defensive outposts). Is it asking too much for ps3? Don't really think so. My opinion is that CCP lacks of human resources. They have plenty of competent people, they're all cool guys. Hell, I really liked Brandon Laurino and his ideas. But still the problem is that there are too few people working on it. If, for example, CCP Wolfman had more people working on kb/m support and DS3 support, he could concentrate more on balance (mind, it's just an example) or other stuffs. It's the same for Infantry vs Vehicles balance and anything else. They're working really really hard with these monthly updates, and obviously they can't adhere to the tight schedule, not just because of ps3.
Ayures II Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 286	Posted - 2013.09.21 11:24:00 - [14] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: My opinion is that CCP lacks of human resources. They have plenty of competent people, they're all cool guys. Hell, I really liked Brandon Laurino and his ideas. But still the problem is that there are too few people working on it. If, for example, CCP Wolfman had more people working on kb/m support and DS3 support, he could concentrate more on balance (mind, it's just an example) or other stuffs. It's the same for Infantry vs Vehicles balance and anything else. They're working really really hard with these monthly updates, and obviously they can't adhere to the tight schedule, not just because of ps3. Except the DUST is mostly done by CCP Shanghai. Cheap outsourced programming. You get what you pay for, I guess.
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 83	Posted - 2013.09.21 11:43:00 - [15] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Listen, my ps3 never gave me any kind of problem with MAG (except random crash with the second update) and it was much less buggy and unstable than Dust, and yes our clan pushed the situation much beyond the situation you described. A full platoon attacking one combustion tower helped by two squads from other two platoons (just for the lulz). Ps3 didn't overheat. The game didn't crash. Now, I'm not saying that we absolutely need a 64 vs 64 game mode with all those bunkers etc, but at least a 32 vs 32 with some kind of feature like destroyable/repairable static objects (walls, doors, bridges, barricades, defensive outposts). Is it asking too much for ps3? Don't really think so. My opinion is that CCP lacks of human resources. They have plenty of competent people, they're all cool guys. Hell, I really liked Brandon Laurino and his ideas. But still the problem is that there are too few people working on it. If, for example, CCP Wolfman had more people working on kb/m support and DS3 support, he could concentrate more on balance (mind, it's just an example) or other stuffs. It's the same for Infantry vs Vehicles balance and anything else. They're working really really hard with these monthly updates, and obviously they can't adhere to the tight schedule, not just because of ps3. I'm not saying my PS3 ever overheated or crashed. I'm saying that a PS3 gets very hot playing MAG, probably still not outside of the systems threshold, but still noticeably higher temperatures than other games. Although some of it can be credited to the slow degradation of server support, MAG got continually less and less stable as updates were released. As you mentioned, random crashes with the 2.0 update, those crashes were often brought on by actions like opening the PS3 UI, receiving messages, and spawning into a battle. Why? Memory usage, that's why. I do agree with the lack of resources. That is where my idea of the difficulty of developing on the PS3's practically legacy hardware comes in. It is hard to keep updates coming when you are strapped for human resources, while wrestling tight hardware constraints, and have both a community and Sony breathing down your neck. Hopefully they can move to the PS4 in good time, it won't solve all of the problems, but I think it would be one less thing to worry about.


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