DUST Search - [Feedback] The HMG needs rework (with videos and physics)

KalOfTheRathi wrote:

I have no idea why you brought real world physics into a space mercenary game set hundreds of years in the future. It doesn't really connect with CCP/Shanghai and what they are trying to do. Which is make a video game. Based in New Eden. Not New Mexico.

They have a plan for the HMG. They backed off because it was pretty strong. I really miss my 70m range with the Assault HMGs but I doubt it is coming back. They have different weapons for that range now.

All the logic, math, stats and heck yeah why not? Charts! Lots of graphs and pictures from Browning to boot. It will not do any good. They have a few tools that they can tweak, if they want. Dispersal, yes. Range as well. The damage is mostly fine in my opinion but there is no protection from mid range attacks (the aforementioned laser and scrambler) and the side arm is limited in effect (and ammo). This is by design.

Do I agree with their current decisions? No. They don't care.

Immortal Mercenaries in Space.

There are no physics you can bring to the table will change that. Ugh

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Cyrille Fodeux DUST University Ivy League 74	Posted - 2013.09.20 05:30:00 - [1] - Quote I-¦ve been playing DUST now since the closed BETA as a Heavy most of the time. In this time the HMG was everything from completely useless in the first build to a clone and vehicle shredder in Chromosome. In between it sometimes worked pretty well but not as that what a MG, be it light or heavy, is supposed to do: Laying down suppressive fire on a large area from afar. There are a few reasons for the HMG not doing it-¦s main purpose, namely it-¦s spread, recoil, range, heat, rotating speed and damage. But let-¦s start right away with some stats. Damage: 18 RoF: 2000 DPS: 600 Optimal Range: 30 meters Effective Range: 50 meters Recoil: Moderate but easy to counter as it-¦s only vertical. Spread: Huge Clip Size: 425 Reload Time: 8s Heat Build Up: 14 Cooldown: 4 Spread The main problem the HMG has right now is its spread. Even if one is standing 10m away from you you miss him with over 50% of the bullets at first and also after the spread gets tighter you miss a lot. A real life minigun is actually very accurate as you can see in this and this (you see it best from 2.40 on) video. These are only up to about 150 meters. This video shows pretty good it-¦s accuracy on ranges from 300 to 1000 meters. NB: The M134 is only a medium machine gun. The accuracy of the HMG should be closer to that of the real one. The spread then should be as wide that on 100 meters 50% of the bullets should be in an area of about 1 square meter if fired at a wall and all bullets should be in a 9 square meter area. Recoil The HMG has absolutely no recoil right now. I don-¦t mean that the barrel starts rising after 100 shots but real recoil that throws you off your aim. by the way the barrel would not rise at all very much as it fires small caliber bullets and it-¦s too heavy that it would lift it up. Again I have a video that shows how a real minigun would act when firing. You can see how the gun kicks when he starts firing and also how strong the recoil is as the guy barely can hold the gun. Now add the facts that that is only a medium machine gun and it is on a podestal and you can imagine how the gun would b*tch around. When crouching the recoil and kick at the beginning should be reduced. Range A machine gun is supposed to lay down suppressive fire, create bottlenecks and force the enemy into cover. This all only works from afar. With an effective range of 50 meters this is not possible even on the small maps we have. All machine guns, be it the laser rifle (lmg) and copies or the HMGs, should have effective ranges of about 120 meters and optimal ranges of about 60-70 meters. Heat The gatling design is specifically designed for sustained fire at high RoF without overheating. A M134 could theoretically fire 1000s of bullets without any heat problems. And though the HMG has a heat build up which is pretty useless as when you overheat, you have about 80 bullets left and you-¦d have to reload anyway. Rotation Speed At the moment the rotation speed while firing and when not firing are the same. This is pretty unrealistic as through the rotating parts of the weapon there would be a high momentum which would make the gun way more sluggish. So the rotation speed while firing should be reduced by about a third or quarter. Additionally would you hold the gun looser the more force you use to rotate the gun which is in cost of the accuracy. Crouching should again reduce the recoil and the kick at the beginning. Damage Damage is not really a point that is bad at the HMG but it-¦s unrealistic that a HMG which usually shoots standard rifle ammo in real life does less damage than a SMG which usually shoots pistol ammo. HMG: 18 Damage SMG: 21 Damage I don-¦t mean to reduce the SMGs damage into oblivion or to buff the HMGs damage but when the Combat Rifle is released it should have the same damage as the HMG. I-¦d propose a damage of about 25 for the HMG and Combat Rifle and about 18 damage for the SMG. With these changes the HMG would have its real role and would allow some tactics. It would neither be overpowered nor useless and you won-¦t have to train another primary weapon just for the case you are on wider maps. TL;DR: Reduce the Spread Increase the Recoil The weapon should kick when you start firing Increase optimal range to about 60-70 meters and effective range to about 120 meters Remove the heat build up The rotation speed while firing should be about a third to a quarter lower than when not firing. Rotating while firing should increase the recoil Increase the damage to about 25 Cheers, Cy
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 72	Posted - 2013.09.20 05:34:00 - [2] - Quote While I reject your argument-from-Real-Life-performance, as well as the particular numbers of your buff, the HMG does need a buff. However, it definitely doesn't need a buff to both damage AND dispersion. One is sufficient, preferably the latter. In any case, +1 because the HMG really isn't as scary as it should be.
xSir Campsalotx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 74	Posted - 2013.09.20 06:26:00 - [3] - Quote I'll take the damage buff personally so as to truly be effective in cqc because currently assualts can still dance around my bullets point blank.
Cyrille Fodeux DUST University Ivy League 74	Posted - 2013.09.20 06:33:00 - [4] - Quote xSir Campsalotx wrote: I'll take the damage buff personally so as to truly be effective in cqc because currently assualts can still dance around my bullets point blank. The HMG should not be good in CQC. It should be a long range weapon.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 191	Posted - 2013.09.20 08:00:00 - [5] - Quote Cyrille Fodeux wrote: xSir Campsalotx wrote: I'll take the damage buff personally so as to truly be effective in cqc because currently assualts can still dance around my bullets point blank. The HMG should not be good in CQC. It should be a long range weapon. That may be true for RL but in Dust the HMG was designed as short range Weapon for whatever reason. And the whole balancing is going around that principle.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Top Men. 1307	Posted - 2013.09.20 08:04:00 - [6] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Cyrille Fodeux wrote: The HMG should not be good in CQC. It should be a long range weapon. That may be true for RL but in Dust the HMG was designed as short range Weapon for whatever reason. And the whole balancing is going around that principle. And bluntly this was the most irritatingly stupid balancing decision in the game for me, given that my MOS was Machinegunner.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 1657	Posted - 2013.09.20 08:31:00 - [7] - Quote minigun =/= HMG /thread end plus vehicle mounted weapons will be mount accurate then infantry carried.
Cyrille Fodeux DUST University Ivy League 74	Posted - 2013.09.20 09:53:00 - [8] - Quote ladwar wrote: minigun =/= HMG /thread end plus vehicle mounted weapons will be mount accurate then infantry carried. It is not but has the same technic hence you can compare them. And I wrote that they were mounted. Did you even read it?
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 192	Posted - 2013.09.20 10:56:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Cyrille Fodeux wrote: The HMG should not be good in CQC. It should be a long range weapon. That may be true for RL but in Dust the HMG was designed as short range Weapon for whatever reason. And the whole balancing is going around that principle. And bluntly this was the most irritatingly stupid balancing decision in the game for me, given that my MOS was Machinegunner. Yes it seems strange and I don't know why they made thsi decision. But giving any weapon in this game comparable Stats like nowadays RL weapons would be lets say not good. Also I beleieve balancing the HMG is quite difficult, it has pretty good DPS compared to most automatic weapons and this should be balanced in some ways. I always liked the way machineguns worked in BF3 but I don't know if that could work in DUST as well.
KalOfTheRathi Black Phoenix Mercenaries 736	Posted - 2013.09.20 11:29:00 - [10] - Quote I have no idea why you brought real world physics into a space mercenary game set hundreds of years in the future. It doesn't really connect with CCP/Shanghai and what they are trying to do. Which is make a video game. Based in New Eden. Not New Mexico. They have a plan for the HMG. They backed off because it was pretty strong. I really miss my 70m range with the Assault HMGs but I doubt it is coming back. They have different weapons for that range now. All the logic, math, stats and heck yeah why not? Charts! Lots of graphs and pictures from Browning to boot. It will not do any good. They have a few tools that they can tweak, if they want. Dispersal, yes. Range as well. The damage is mostly fine in my opinion but there is no protection from mid range attacks (the aforementioned laser and scrambler) and the side arm is limited in effect (and ammo). This is by design. Do I agree with their current decisions? No. They don't care. Immortal Mercenaries in Space. There are no physics you can bring to the table will change that.

Cyrille Fodeux DUST University Ivy League 74	Posted - 2013.09.20 11:47:00 - [11] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: I have no idea why you brought real world physics into a space mercenary game set hundreds of years in the future. It doesn't really connect with CCP/Shanghai and what they are trying to do. Which is make a video game. Based in New Eden. Not New Mexico. They have a plan for the HMG. They backed off because it was pretty strong. I really miss my 70m range with the Assault HMGs but I doubt it is coming back. They have different weapons for that range now. All the logic, math, stats and heck yeah why not? Charts! Lots of graphs and pictures from Browning to boot. It will not do any good. They have a few tools that they can tweak, if they want. Dispersal, yes. Range as well. The damage is mostly fine in my opinion but there is no protection from mid range attacks (the aforementioned laser and scrambler) and the side arm is limited in effect (and ammo). This is by design. Do I agree with their current decisions? No. They don't care. Immortal Mercenaries in Space. There are no physics you can bring to the table will change that. Well, the game is set 100s of years in the future where humanity lost most knowledge accomplished before. Then it's a Minmatar who were enslaved by the Amarr and thus could barely evolve the technology. Hence you can use real life physics here.


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