DUST Search - Gunnlogi technically obsolete?

Operative 1171 Aajli wrote:

Sgt Buttscratch wrote:

Can we stop caldari's from using mass drivers while we're there, limit LZ and SR to the Amarr etc.......

I like both tanks being able to use all turrets, why narrow the game down. If they were going to try limit racial equipment to its race it should be game wide. When we join a factional warfare we shouldn't get a choice who we fight for, because we made that when creating our characters.
In other words, NO. Gunnlogi's do need some love but trying to "hinder" the madrugar is not a fix, it's just nerfing the other tank. Cutting your nose off to spite your face.

People, with very few exceptions, are not machines. Tanks are already geared for certain weapons. The hinderance is there already. Just make it count more.

A maddy on the redline with a rail is enjoying the best of both worlds. No reason to spec shield tank when you can spec armor and still do the shield tank's job.

My shield tank char is useless when on my armor tank char I can do the same job plus enjoy a much better active hardener/repper with the armor tank that is meant to deal with up close damage.

Using Caldari shield tanks are really just an RP thing atm. Again, why even have the caldari tank if other racial tanks can use their long range weapons?

The precedence for restrictions is there:

In EVE weapon use is based on bonuses. Ships get bonuses for their appropriate racial weapon. This motivates players to use those weapons. Ships however, can use other mods to counter drawbacks. Plus the way that ship combat works you are not restricted by distance or obstacles as with ground combat.

Capacitor plays a part in laser turret use. Only Amarr ships have the cap for it.

You have to have a missile slot to mount missile launchers.

Other equipment such as the cov-ops cloaking device has something like a 99 percent fitting penalty and only a cov-ops ship can fit the device due to a 99 percent fitting bonus.

When laser turrets hit DUST surely only the amarr tanks will be able to deal with the feedback like the amarr dropsuits deal with laser rifle and scram rifle feedback with a racial bonus.

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Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 322	Posted - 2013.09.16 13:08:00 - [1] - Quote If a madrugar can fit a rail turret, then what use is a gunnlogi anymore? Here's hoping 1.5 can make the gunnlogi somehow valid again. Wish CCP would increase the fitting stats to hinder the madrugar more for using a rail and missile. Why have racial tanks and weapons otherwise?
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 651	Posted - 2013.09.16 13:13:00 - [2] - Quote Glass cannon fit
Sgt Buttscratch SLAPHAPPY BANDITS 765	Posted - 2013.09.16 13:14:00 - [3] - Quote Can we stop caldari's from using mass drivers while we're there, limit LZ and SR to the Amarr etc....... I like both tanks being able to use all turrets, why narrow the game down. If they were going to try limit racial equipment to its race it should be game wide. When we join a factional warfare we shouldn't get a choice who we fight for, because we made that when creating our characters. In other words, NO. gonnlogi's do need some love but trying to "hinder" the madrugar is not a fix, it's just nerfing the other tank. Cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Tank Missile Intara Direct Action Caldari State 1	Posted - 2013.09.16 13:24:00 - [4] - Quote My missile Gunnlogi tears up Madrugar b-hole on a regular basis, hardly obsolete.
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 322	Posted - 2013.09.16 13:42:00 - [5] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Can we stop caldari's from using mass drivers while we're there, limit LZ and SR to the Amarr etc....... I like both tanks being able to use all turrets, why narrow the game down. If they were going to try limit racial equipment to its race it should be game wide. When we join a factional warfare we shouldn't get a choice who we fight for, because we made that when creating our characters. In other words, NO. Gunnlogi's do need some love but trying to "hinder" the madrugar is not a fix, it's just nerfing the other tank. Cutting your nose off to spite your face. People, with very few exceptions, are not machines. Tanks are already geared for certain weapons. The hinderance is there already. Just make it count more. A maddy on the redline with a rail is enjoying the best of both worlds. No reason to spec shield tank when you can spec armor and still do the shield tank's job. My shield tank char is useless when On my armortank char I can do the same job plus enjoy a much better active hardener/repper with the armor tank that is meant to deal with up close damage. Again, why even have the caldari tank if other racial tanks can use their long range weapons? In EVE weapon use is based on bonuses. Capacitor plays a part in laser turret use. Only Amarr ships have the cap for it. Other equipment such as the cov-ops cloaking device has something like a 99 percent fitting penalty and only a cov-ops ship can fit the device due to a 99 percent fitting bonus. When laser turrets hit DUST surely only the amarr tanks will be able to deal with the feedback like the amarr dropsuits deal with laser rifle and scram rifle feedback with a racial bonus. The precedence is there. Using Caldari shield tanks are really just an RP thing atm.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 803	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:23:00 - [6] - Quote You aren't using it right. The gunlogi is best used as a hit and run destroyer. I've taken it 2 v 1 vs rail madrugards and won because I can bump the damage up extremely high with damage mods. Then again, I'm an old school shield tanker and this type of tactic comes easy to me. Stop using it as a an assault tank and use it as a tactical sniper you will win if you're smart.
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 1711	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:24:00 - [7] - Quote technically obsolete, the best kind of obsolete
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1718	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:26:00 - [8] - Quote Gallente also use rails as well as Caldari. Just not as much.
SgtDoughnut M.E.R.C. Elite 127	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:33:00 - [9] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Can we stop caldari's from using mass drivers while we're there, limit LZ and SR to the Amarr etc....... I like both tanks being able to use all turrets, why narrow the game down. If they were going to try limit racial equipment to its race it should be game wide. When we join a factional warfare we shouldn't get a choice who we fight for, because we made that when creating our characters. In other words, NO. Gunnlogi's do need some love but trying to "hinder" the madrugar is not a fix, it's just nerfing the other tank. Cutting your nose off to spite your face. People, with very few exceptions, are not machines. Tanks are already geared for certain weapons. The hinderance is there already. Just make it count more. A maddy on the redline with a rail is enjoying the best of both worlds. No reason to spec shield tank when you can spec armor and still do the shield tank's job. My shield tank char is useless when on my armor tank char I can do the same job plus enjoy a much better active hardener/repper with the armor tank that is meant to deal with up close damage. Using Caldari shield tanks are really just an RP thing atm. Again, why even have the caldari tank if other racial tanks can use their long range weapons? The precedence for restrictions is there: In EVE weapon use is based on bonuses. Ships get bonuses for their appropriate racial weapon. This motivates players to use those weapons. Ships however, can use other mods to counter drawbacks. Plus the way that ship combat works you are not restricted by distance or obstacles as with ground combat. Capacitor plays a part in laser turret use. Only Amarr ships have the cap for it. You have to have a missile slot to mount missile launchers. Other equipment such as the cov-ops cloaking device has something like a 99 percent fitting penalty and only a cov-ops ship can fit the device due to a 99 percent fitting bonus. When laser turrets hit DUST surely only the amarr tanks will be able to deal with the feedback like the amarr dropsuits deal with laser rifle and scram rifle feedback with a racial bonus. You are right to a degree, bonuses do guide people to use certain weapons, but I have used laser rohks before, they are fun, and unexpected. In groups they can actually be quite powerful. Rail Mega's were a thing as well though they tend to be based twords blasters. You can have an off fit and have it be effective, however you are right suits and hulls should have small bonuses twords certain weapons.
8213 Grade No.2 272	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:37:00 - [10] - Quote Shield tanks are better against AV.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 400	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:39:00 - [11] - Quote I prefer to rail snipe in my Madrugar (which I have dubbed "Buford") so leave Buford alone!!!!
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1257	Posted - 2013.09.17 00:36:00 - [12] - Quote Tank Missile wrote: My missile Gunnlogi tears up Madrugar b-hole on a regular basis, hardly obsolete. i doubt it. My falshion, enforcer 3 proto missiles with a damage mod cant kill the better armor tankers. They close the distance and kill me anyway
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 329	Posted - 2013.09.17 17:37:00 - [13] - Quote Thanks for the replies but my point is that the Madrugar being able to use the long range weapons intended for the Gunnlogi based on the Caldari method of combat invalidated the Gunnlogi. Several players have in game and on the forums have defended the Madrugar as a superior choice for armor defense. Fitting a rail doesn't hurt it much more than maybe minus one hardener. For a long range fit that hardener isn't needed. A Gunnlogi might could last against a Madrugar in a long range rail shoot out; but, the only reason a player would be using the Gunnlogi is because they already specced into it. For all other intents and purposes the Madrugar would have been a better choice. I specced this char into shield tanks but I also created a char on a second account for armor tanks. I trained them up together. The shield tank simply has no use since I can just fit the armor tank to do the same job. What I'm hoping is that CCP will give the Caldari tank reason for being on the field other than just the RP background of being a long range combat vehicle. Make using a Caldari tank with a rail and missiles mean something.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4052	Posted - 2013.09.17 17:48:00 - [14] - Quote Vehicles in their current state are biased towards armour tanks. CPU and PG limitations on Caldari vehicles make anything but Missiles impractical, although a good Missile-armed Sica CAN tear chunks out of an armour tank - even a Madrugar - if they aren't cautious enough. It sucks that a Caldari weapon isn't practical on Caldari tanks in the current state of the game, but with 1.5 they're supposed to be doing a major overhaul of vehicles, so hopefully we'll see more good changes than bad, and hopefully they'll include a MUCH better balance of fitting capabilities for vehicle users.
Dimitri Rascolovitch The Immortal Knights 40	Posted - 2013.09.17 17:57:00 - [15] - Quote Exmaple Core wrote: Tank Missile wrote: My missile Gunnlogi tears up Madrugar b-hole on a regular basis, hardly obsolete. i doubt it. My falshion, enforcer 3 proto missiles with a damage mod cant kill the better armor tankers. They close the distance and kill me anyway thats because AS IN THE DESCTIPTION OF THE TANK it is weaker than normal variants, and better suited for long range, not CQC
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 982	Posted - 2013.09.17 18:02:00 - [16] - Quote Tank Missile wrote: My missile Gunnlogi tears up Madrugar b-hole on a regular basis, hardly obsolete. Your more likly coming across inferior pilots as I also pop many maddys in my gunlogi or falchion missile fits but rarely one of the other vet pilots inusually have to bringnout the maddy to bring them dowm as much as I hate running gallente they are supperior with their op reps. 99% of the time I run shield havs but onlybrun armour when im facing another vet pilot.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2074	Posted - 2013.09.17 18:15:00 - [17] - Quote Can someone explain why a Gunnlogi is worse than a Madrugar? I would think since it's a shield tank it would have an advantage, considering Forge Gun - Hybrid Rail - 90% shield, 110% armor Swarm Launcher - Explosive - 80% shield, 120% armor AV Grenade - Explosive - 80% shield, 120% armor Rail Turrets - Hybrid Rail - 90% shield, 110% armor Blaster Turrets - Hybrid Plasma - 110% shield, 90% armor Missile Turrets - Explosive - 80% shield, 120% armor Out of all the AV weapons, only one has an advantage against shields, and only slightly. Shields take reduced damage from everything else.
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 173	Posted - 2013.09.17 18:17:00 - [18] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: If a madrugar can fit a rail turret, then what use is a gunnlogi anymore? Here's hoping 1.5 can make the gunnlogi somehow valid again. Wish CCP would increase the fitting stats to hinder the madrugar more for using a rail and missile. Why have racial tanks and weapons otherwise? Resist to forge guns and swarms
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4053	Posted - 2013.09.17 19:04:00 - [19] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Forge Gun - Hybrid Rail - 90% shield, 110% armor I know in previous builds, this has actually functioned the other way around. Obviously, it's not SUPPOSED to, and I haven't tested it since Uprising 1.0 (at which point it was still 110% on shields), so it may have been fixed. But it's still something to keep in mind. Also, that Missile Gunnlogi DOES have a better chance at killing a Blaster Madrugar - as mentioned, I've killed a Madrugar with a Sica before (died to Swarms about half a second later, but totally worth it), and done serious damage in more than one encounter with it. When I'm running a Gunnlogi, I'll usually kill a Madrugar if it's a straight-up fight (no infantry support or element of surprise influencing the result). My Missiles usually hit first because of the range advantage, but until they're in Blaster range, I'm not hitting with the full spread, so I'll get 2, maybe 3 from my first 4-shot volley, then I start taking damage. Then he gets torn into tiny little pieces by missiles and I still have shields left. The Enforcer has lower EHP and lower speed than a Gunnlogi, so it's taking 2 severe disadvantages straight away. Add to that the fact that Blasters get a small bonus to shield damage, and the fact that armour tanks have a MUCH better slot layout for stacking damage mods, and you can make a Madrugar into a more durable version of an Enforcer fitting.
daishi mk03 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 215	Posted - 2013.09.17 19:26:00 - [20] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Can someone explain why a Gunnlogi is worse than a Madrugar? I would think since it's a shield tank it would have an advantage, considering Forge Gun - Hybrid Rail - 90% shield, 110% armor Swarm Launcher - Explosive - 80% shield, 120% armor AV Grenade - Explosive - 80% shield, 120% armor Rail Turrets - Hybrid Rail - 90% shield, 110% armor Blaster Turrets - Hybrid Plasma - 110% shield, 90% armor Missile Turrets - Explosive - 80% shield, 120% armor Out of all the AV weapons, only one has an advantage against shields, and only slightly. Shields take reduced damage from everything else. Rail gun: 110% vs shield, 90% vs armor you tank bro? mad, active heat sink, 2 hardener, rail > all
The Attorney General ZionTCD 916	Posted - 2013.09.17 20:28:00 - [21] - Quote Gunloggi is vastly superiour for spider tanking, because the reps can be fit to a wider selection of vehicles, and used properly provide a huge boost to a shield tank. By offloading the PG cost of shield boosters, you can either run more shield or more resists, enough so that you can survive versus a Maddy, and be disgustingly lethal to ground troops. Besides, shield tanks can run up to three damage mods, which will never happen on a Maddy.
Cy Clone1 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 251	Posted - 2013.09.17 20:39:00 - [22] - Quote shield tanks wouldn't be in bad spot if the armor reps weren't over preforming. a rail madruger properly fit will destroy any shield tank fit you guys can come up with. There is no way to put out enough damage to get through the reps and the hardeners just make it even more impossible.

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