Yeah i read that post, i think the guy that went 97-0 in his tank probably could not have done that with an assault fit.

Its a FPS, Infantry is the blood that courses through this type of game.

You want to use vehicles? play EVE.

Ah no,but you people want to use VEHICLES to stomp on INFANTRY....Pfft... talk about EZ mode pricks....

Too many games are balanced on the concept of free vehicles.This is what make trying to make Dust 514 vehicles feel just 'right' extraordinarily difficult because they don't rain from the sky for free. Someone paid for those tanks, as does everything that tank can kill.

This is why making the tank too good is considerably a bad thing because it can negate everyone's else's investments in both skill points in isk quickly to the point that the infantry interplay is non existent. Which is the current industry standard, From the call of duty expansion pack multiplayer games to halo, to unreal, to even more recently Plane Side 2 included. Earlier builds such as E3 had tanks that was designed stats wise on this model almost and they where largely obscurely very dangerous racking up nearly up to 40-70 kills by its lonesome. Matches quickly digested down to who can deploy the most tanks first and fastest. Once on field and one side did not have sufficient amount of HAVs on the field the match was by and large over. People couldn't spawn, people could call in other vehicles and of course the team insufficient of tanks couldn't call orbitals either to which might I add the old age tanks laughed off.

During this age and time CCP Blam asserted that he believed that HAVs did not require infantry support, this drew quite a bit of ire from the infantry community at the time.

As Dust 514 continued to develop the HAV nerfs began to roll in one after the other to the point its now the reverse being in play. Tanks are not worth the sufficient amount of isk and sp investments to be effective on the field. While the HAVs on the edge its vehicles like the standard dropship that have seem to fallen off the table in terms of isk per power projection. However not all is lost, its possible to dial it back a bit make the vehicles more worth their costs.

As it stands now Team Kong, consisting of the likes of CCP Wolfman and CCP Remnant are in charge of everything you touch on the battlefield from your controllers to each gun and suit, to have them in charge of vehicles as well is an extraordinarily smart move as it gets the entire picture singing the same song. 1.5 will feature the first set of massive revisions with subsequent patches adding back in all that was nuked out of existence in 1.5.

PPl say they are bad because they have invested around 11mill SP into an armor tank to survive that sort of punnishment but can be so easily destroyed by any mode of cooperation. Those are quality tankers you were attempting to solo, and if they took that much effort to kill they must have been full HP with their active mods ready to go. So yeah the very best tanks can get away from a single proto AV user, but they quickly die to 2 or more AV users. Wich is fair, i think. But it doesent change the fact that tanks are bad cuz their so easy to kill. A shield tank will get soloed in under 8 seconds by a proto forge as well, never mind any 2 ppl with forges.

But to keep my thread revilant about how this is about infaintry being alowed to do well and tanks are not allowed to do well or their OP, if an infaintry soldier wins a 2v1 or a 3v1 its fair, perfectly balanced and that guy is skilled. But if a skilled tanker kills 2 or 3 people armed with assualt rifiles then its OP. I... dont understand. Very biased

Agree. i wasent there to see how tanks wrecked face by themselfs but im glad they dont do that anymore

Godin, Checkmate, I'm getting the feeling you guys don't play a lot of MMO's from your posts, so let me explain the tanking philosophy that I use.

A tank in an MMO is a defensive character that protects his teammates by having high health, and high defense. He gets the attention of the enemy and survives long enough for his team to kill it. He does not have killing power, all his equipment goes towards survival and health. He is first and foremost a bait character.

So yeah, if my tank in 1.5 is a bullet sponge, it's that way by my design. You are guaranteed not to see me top the kill boards, my job will be to make sure that my teammates do. And that is perfectly fair, and utterly balanced. It's only broken if an offensive tank has my level of defense in addition to extreme killing power, and if you'd just read the front page of Wolfman's 1.5 thread, you'll see that's not going to be happening. HAV' pilots are going to have to choose what they want their vehicles to be in the coming build.

Yeah, but being a defensive oriented tank doesn't = unkillable. It just means you're trading killing power for survivability. Staying alive is still going to be on the pilot. And I think it's safe to say that you aren't going to be seeing a lot of small turrets on HAV's after 1.5 drops. Screw that noise. Anyone wanting to ride around in a tank can build their own. Parasites.

You want to truly **** over a tanker, then make it where the driver is only a driver, he still needs a gunner for even his main gun. That way a tank is always at least 2 people from your team. The driver also being the gunner just makes it where people spec into it so they can be less agile bullet sponges that either wreak havoc cause they have to much armor and require special equipment just to take down (mind you if you are using that equipment you are just about **** against infantry) or weak little peices of glass that cry all day because they don't have the armor that they think they should have.

If tanks had a 2 man minimum they could tip further twords the death machine all the dedicated tankers want them to be, they would require teamwork and 2 people to field properly.

Thats what they said in PS1 as well but every tank was at least a 2 man crew, prowler had 3 man crew, the driver was the driver and nothing else. Still had huge tank groups, plenty of fun and more effective and more numerous av than we do in Dust. Tanks were more effective because they worked as a team and a group asset instead of being a crying little ***** like you seem to be.

How was it imbalanced when the SP you earned went much further? Whose fault is it nobody in those games had PRO AV? Can you tell me why you think it was imbalanced? Nobody on the other team could field tanks? You're talking about the days when every tank was dead in 2 shots.

Let me put it this way if a tanker goes 15 and 0 no problem and if an infantry goes 15 and 0 no problem since both are doable.

The problem is its easy to redline snipe to get 30 and 0 in a tank but its not as easy for most infantry to go 30 and 0.

Theres an imbalance there that is created by isk.

NO!!

You are in your current predicament due to tankers seeing a bunch of randoms on the enemy team and then deciding that they posed such a "threat" that it needed not one, not two , not three but four yes FOUR TANKS!! to stomp on them for easy lol kills.

Well the tankers made the bed by lol pub stomping in ambush.

For all those shouting the COD card. Use BF. they got the vehicle to infantry down right. or planet side. or halo. or unreal. or arma. but those HAV don't last long enough to draw a fart? no ****, cause THEY ARE FPS GAMES.

Dust is a ....mmo? MMORPGFPS? It a bloody LOBBY SHOOTER. Roaming open areas? talking to NPC? Wrong game. That game is called destiny.

resistance had a boat load of players. sure as hell no one is gonna call that game a mmo. MAG? riiiight. If by mmo you mean the MARKET being shared from eve, then yes mmo indeed.

CCP made a LOBBY FPS boys and girls. not a RTS.

Damn, i never knew pressing 5-7 buttons at the same time requires an ounce of skill...my guess is that you never played BattleTech back in the Pentium 90 days on Lan Matches (internets didnt excist yet).

Do a little too much and the Mech Overheated and shut down, you could overide this command if you had the skill & balls to pull it off while cycling weapon groups to fight efficiently at all times at all ranged, coupled with back thrusters to dodge incomming rail-fire and while your at it, place a Death From Above attack while comming down, locking the next mech and swapping weapons or activating systems.

You also had to take notice of damaged sectors or wrecked sectors because armor was gone there and your mech would take internal damage if it got hit there.

Tanks in Dust = Point, BLAST-EM..../drive away../activate module while driving away..or if your really daring, activate it before the shot hits ..OMG OMG so l33t....

So what you are saying is
lets make it like "real life" where the fact I spend millions on a tank should mean im awsome
but we can't have "real life", where a single shoulder launched missle blows up your tank because . . ?

If you dont want it to be like the real world, dont use the real world in any of arguments
then don't bring up any real world **** in any of your arguments either, then we wont have to, we only respond to what you infantry say, its you infantry who keep bringing up the real world

just what exactly do expect tanks to be like?
neither side can ever agree on anything, its up to CCP to decide how HAVs should be used, if we don't like it, they lose the vehicle pilots and this game becomes another call of duty

How many people should it take, to take down a tank being driven by one guy?
iv explained this many times before, a minimum of 3 AVers should take down a tank that is 2 tiers above their AV level.

but if you require 3 people to kill one HAV, then the entire team needs to bring out AV to take down more than one tank

So what happens when younget a tank at top av level?
Thats a political answer how many should it take down a tank the same tier as the av?

I thought thats what you meant. . . . . you can expect your nerf in the post, because ill tell you now 3std av isn't enough for a std hull with complex(proto) mods!!

Well now your going round circles void, which is more important, the hull or the mods which should define you?
At the moment I dont think you really have std hulls, they are a base nothing more, its what you put on them that makes them work!

I understand sometimes being tanker can be annoying, but in my experience of tanking, there is this very gungho approach, I think wolfman will put a stop to this, make tanks have more defined roles, let them interact with infantry better.
Hell im starting to see that now in .4. I was on a domination and we had created a barricade from hacked enemy llavs so they used a tank like a battering ram. Then the infantry used it for cover. We saw it off with an av effort, but he got away and recalled, but he didn't bring it out again! Tanks are a force multiplier when used correctly!!

For my understanding, tanks still require only one person to operate properly (unlike like LAV that need 2). This makes them fairly expensive super weapon that allows one man to dominate the battlefield. Kinda like near invulnerability with ridiculous firepower for a cost.

So until they require a team to operate (at least 2) infantry should not need a team to take them down. Cost and SP required is irrelevant (Grind2Win, Pay2Win doesn't go well with fps games).


Besides having dedicated driver and dedicated shooter would make them heck of a lot more mobile and promote other fits that just shield/armor tanking ones.

What is the role of a tank then?

Apart from the overcome any obstacle bit I agree, however they should also be capable of defending a teams assets or strongholds, this were the difference between sheild and armour tanks will be apparant, an armour tanks engagement time will be defined by its lack of ammo, it can dish out damage only fof a while before it needs to leave and resupply, while sheild based tanks will be dependant on their active modules, they can only stick around so long before the modules turn off and the tank becomes weak!!

Dude what do you expect, tanks aren't one man killing machines they need support they need other people, why should it be any different? 1 man makes a solider, many men make an army!!

Void have some faith im personally looking forward to tge changes as we will see who can still cut it . I like the hit run hide pattern of tanking I.e. rush round tge redline to the enimys redline and destroy everything between you and your own redline whilst ploughing through the field and I think the changes in 1.5 will just emphasise the current tanking schools I.e. armour will be the stand and deliver tank abd shields the gurilla attack vehicles there supposed to be . Im looking forward to the acctive dammage mods

Finally someone who gets it, armour tanking is all about being more of a longer lasting presence, you might have to sacrifice power in order to stick around longer, but you're ability to commit your fire for a sustained period gives many pros!!

Sheild tanks are all about punching a hole then allowing infantry to finish the job, while armour is more of close infantry support, prepare for teamwork tankers, teamwork will be the flavour of the game!!

Also to the guy brining in the real world example for who has the most money wins, you sir have just bought the worst and poorest argument ever in the history of warfare.

I cannot recall once, not once, where an effective weapon system that passed prototyping and into mass manufacture was ever designed to take out something costs more (in use) than what it typically kills.

Average soldier is about 15,000 USD to train and gear up and grind out, he can be easily killed by a 1$ bullet to the face.

Average fielded tank these days depending where you are can run you anywhere from 250,000 USD (old war) to 15 million a pop (the M1-A1 Abrams) and the RPG 25 has been known for the last decade to be able to defeat said tank probably costs around 500 to 5k usd give or take (this is just a rough estimate there is really established price tag but the system is just a tube and rocket it cannot get that expensive, now with guidance you're talking about 5-20x the price, such as a stinger) The older RPGs that able to make mincemeat out of old world tank's crew are as cheap as 50 USD a rocket.