DUST Search - How to beat the AR: Weapon Cycles and Balance

Fox Gaden wrote:

Beren Hurin wrote:

Fox Gaden wrote:

Beren Hurin wrote:

Lightning Bolt2 wrote:

yay... a ScR nerf thread! saying thats its more OP than the OP AR!

No, it explicitly is not a nerf ScR thread. It is a SR is > AR in situation A while AR > SR in situation B. I've clearly laid out some scenarios where AR is better. It's up to you to stop just playing rock, paper, scissors with just the biggest rocks you can find.

My issue is that currently with the AR vs the HMG Scissors cuts Rock.

I see you there. What I would suggest for Heavy Weapons isn't that the DPS should necessarily increase, but they should do a kind of knockback with their high RoF. That way HMG vs. AR means that if you catch the heavy with his back turned, yes, he's probably dead, justifiably. But if he starts to get a shot on you, you will have a hard time getting damage on him consistantly.

That, or a Sharp Shooter skill similar to what the SMG has to reduce dispersion. Dispersion is dramatically shortening the effective range way below what it should be.

Edit: I have also noticed this week that I canGÇÖt sprint when getting hit, whether it is an HMG or an AR, or whatever shooting me. I am hoping this is a glitch because it is incredibly frustrating. I am not sure I would wish that on my enemies.


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Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1572	Posted - 2013.09.13 16:17:00 - [1] - Quote One thing people aren't completely getting is that you can't treat all weapons equally. You really have to understand exactly how and when to use your weapon wisely. There are lots of complaints that AR is OP right now, but in my opnion, I have found a number of ways to efficiently deal with them. So I thought that I would illustrate with some theory first. I looked up a number of STD weapons' RoF, damage, and reload/cooldown times to compare what I term their 'damage cycles'. IOW, what does the DPS output of a weapon look like over time? I made some assumptions that are a little hidden, the biggest being that I assume 100% accuracy, and when not mentioned, all these numbers are inside the optimals of each weapon. Also, they are assuming a MAX DPS model, which assumes people will fire a full clip for as long as they can, and barring other issues, will do the max damage they can. In the case of the scrambler rifle, I did not factor in a charged shot, but just that a player was firing as many rounds in a second that they could (which is a generous estimate). However, I estimate that a charged shot is basically equal to the amount of shots that could have been fired during that charge. *note: I did not factor overheat on the HMG, but I did assume the scrambler rifle's cycle was interrupted by one hoverheat before reloading. On to the charts (this will mainly involve rifle comparisons): So first we have a DPS comparison of six different STD weapon cycles over their max ammo lifetime. -Some cycles do higher rates of DPS, while others simply last longer. -When a weapon's complete magazine is finished its DPS drops to zero. -I created a hypothetical AScr with .95% of the damage of the ADV. Next is a look just at rifle cycles of the same info. -This assumes all 3 rifles are in their optimal. (under 45m) -You can see that the scrambler rifle can hit harder for shorter periods and is vulnerable longer during an overheat -The AScr has longer sustained fire -The AR has shorter cycles which lets it reengage faster. The next chart sums the data from the last to show that each rifle does about the same amount of damage over time. -The scrambler gets the jump on the other rifles, but their more moderated damage lets them equal out. When we look at what the AR does at its effective range (62.5m) vs. the SR, you see when the SR really starts to shine. -The SR is doing nearly 4x DPS in a given second but for about half the period. Finally is a chart showing DPS accumulating between the two at the AR's effective range -The SR ends up with almost a total advantage of 2x the damage at that range. Summary: Use the range, timing, reload speed, effective damage type, RoF, overheat, etc all in your weapon's favor. There are VERY nuanced aspects to each weapon type that is extremely unappreciated right now, and people seem to be crying for balance, when they don't understand the potential balance that already exists.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1576	Posted - 2013.09.13 18:18:00 - [2] - Quote My AScr numbers are actually a little low. I checked and they should be about 5% better than they are. I had inserted 34 Dmg/rd rather than 36.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1578	Posted - 2013.09.13 18:54:00 - [3] - Quote gbghg wrote: So in the time it takes a HMG to do 1200 damage,assuming that we manage to empty the clip without overheating, the AR does nearly 1600. And you said that's assuming both are inside their optimals? If you are referring to the first chart, it is ONLY damage in that given second. I had another I chose not to post which was like the third chart, but showing all the weapons from chart one. Using that data, the summed damage over time, when the HMG has done 1200 damage (600DPS for 2 secs), the AR will have only done 850 (425 DPS for 2 secs). -Again this is actually no skills applied to any weapon and 100% accuracy. But yes, its in the optimals of each weapon for the first 3 charts.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1579	Posted - 2013.09.13 19:19:00 - [4] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: My AScr numbers are actually a little low. I checked and they should be about 5% better than they are. I had inserted 34 Dmg/rd rather than 36. It doesn't look like you accounted for the AScRs lower RoF as well, its overheat too. I know for a fact the AScR has lower DPS than the AR. I DID NOT account for its overheat, which happens after firing the first two magazines (on the ADV weapon with level III skills). So who knows what a STD AScR would do, it probably would be lower. As far as paper DPS goes... btw: I'm going off of Chankd Saotomes database which had a lot of weapon numbers. So TBH, some stuff could be old... One thing that this won't show, is that skills will increase the DPS of AScRs indirectly by affecting cooldown speed. AR: 34 HP/rd---750 RPM= 425 HP/s max DPS without skills/damage mods. (theoretical) STD AScR: 36 HP/Rd (95% of ADV)---706 RPM= 424 HP/s max DPS. What also affects DPS is the average tank type that you are hitting. If for example if you, on average are hitting a tank that is: 60% shield and 40% armor: the AscR is 104% and the AR is 102% efficient against those profiles. 50% shield and 50% armor: they two weapons are equal 30% shield and 70% armor (like a heavy): AScR is 92% effective while AR is 99% effective. If most of your damage is against armor at close range, you want the AR.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1579	Posted - 2013.09.13 19:33:00 - [5] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: +1 for your research, analysis and presentation. There is fatal flaw, however in your approach and conclusion. DPS on paper is substantially different from DPS in game. Accuracy must be considered in any sound analysis. DPS disparity (actual vs theoretical) is oft observed in CQC, where the AR is demonstrably dominant. 100% accuracy with a Shotgun is seldom -- if ever -- observed. The same goes for the HMG. On paper, the SG and HMG should out-DPS the AR. In game, however, the opposite is observed. I hope this makes sense; let me know if I can clarify. - Shotty GoBang Yeah, this is why i mostly looked at the rifles. Their high RoF and accuracy are the most comparable, and my last two tables are my main point. Fighting in/out of your target weapon's effective range matters. Even 1 second DPS increments aren't totally honest to each of these weapons. I would still think though that your accuracy inside of each weapon's optimals, should be fairly comparative skill wise. IOW it should take roughly equal skill to land 50% of your damage with a SG at 10m as it would to land 50% of your damage with a AR at 35m. Safely, NAVIGATING to each of those ranges for each of those weapon types to apply that damage is another story. I really think the shotgun's glory days where it could go 1 v 4 because of bad hit detection and mouse acrobatics are in the past. Now its a weapon best used for chasing down or surprising solo players. Which there are still a few advantages that it has because of that. One, underreported one, would be that, although it's sound is noticable, its short range and fire type, has little indication of its existence. This is unlike rifles that draw tracer rounds back to their user. This is why is would be better for chasing down that solo player in the distance rather than giving away your position with some tracer rounds. Also, shotgunners are uniquelly advantaged to take out players when they are at their slowest during the 2-3 seconds that they are reloading/overheating. If you aren't surprising a player, I would guess that harassing them with sidearm damage would make more sense as a lead-in, to push them to lose all their ammo, then pulling out the SG as they are about to reload. My charts should help with the feeling of knowing when about each weapon should reload/overheat as well (which is really important at catching a player off guard with a shotty).
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1579	Posted - 2013.09.13 19:34:00 - [6] - Quote Theresa Rohk wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: My AScr numbers are actually a little low. I checked and they should be about 5% better than they are. I had inserted 34 Dmg/rd rather than 36. It doesn't look like you accounted for the AScRs lower RoF as well, its overheat too. I know for a fact the AScR has lower DPS than the AR. Divide DPS by accuracy rating? That would give a "performance" ratio of how much damage is accurately put out. Though again, its just paper analysis. It doesn't factor into usage in game where things like range can be moot on smaller closed in maps were players aren't likely to use the extra range of other guns. The main problem, as I've said in other threads, is that the BR (blaster rifle) is simply too strong at everything. It needs a niche, and right now its niche is being the best choice for 90% of all scenarios. Did you read my post. It does not compare at all to the SR at it's effective range. It cannot sustain deadly fire at that range.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1582	Posted - 2013.09.13 20:27:00 - [7] - Quote Theresa Rohk wrote: Did you read mine? "It doesn't factor into usage in game where things like range can be moot on smaller closed in maps". I.e. range means ** all if you aren't capable of capitalizing on it. Also, how are you calculating ROF on a semi automatic rifle? Also, now that I'm digging into it, ther'es a bunch of problems with paper graphs like this. Yeah, valid point. But not really a fair response to my main point which is, "Fight the AR outside it's effective range." People still see the game through a CQC PoV. If you look at the maps, I believe there is only one, Skim Junction, which has a majority of objectives that are close-quarters oriented. I think it's fair to say that MOST objectives should be easily defended/assaulted with medium/long range weapons. They may not be able to be instantly overrun and assaulted at medium range though obviously. Im just trying to emphasize to people that range dictation, where possible, should be a core aspect of their gameplay. Defeatist attitudes about inevitable CQC is hurting the because they aren't realistic given the maps we have. Theresa Rohk wrote:** 100% accuracy, okay, sure. Not that big of a deal but realize that is not hard to do with the BR, but much harder with guns like the ASCR or laser rifle. Also, and a big one, you can't fire a full clip with the SR, straight. It overheats, and that, kinda puts a giant wrench in your SR calculations. Assuming it doesn't overheat is like assuming you don't reload, it's a HUGE factor of the gun and how it is balanced. Also, by ignoring the charged shot you ignore a huge burst damage potential on the first shot. Since you can start the engagement with that shot charged already. you basically (according to you) get free extra shots in your firing period. Yeah I didn't do a good job of explaining my SR cycle model. It kind of is showing two sub-cycles. The first is a few shots 15ish i think before the weapon overheats, the second is how many you fire before you have to reload. I'm going to take a second look at it, but as I mentioned before, it is hard to model. I may have forgot an overheat cycle, which would bring it down a bit in total damage and cycle rate. The assumption was that with no skills, i get my SR to overheat with about 2 seconds of continuous fire. If you were to use the charge as an analysis point, you would also kind of have to use the charge up time (and however long you held it for) sort of as the point where you start counting DPS, because your weapon is ineffective at that point. So I thought it was fair to say that the max DPS at least of each sub-cycle with or without charge was about the same if you started at the point when you let the shot off. This is also because it isn't like you can fire 2 more seconds worth of shots after a charge, it basically counts as if you had already fired 5-6 shots worth of heatup, meaning you just have a few more shots to work with immediately afterword. But you are right to hint that SRs can be the most unpredictable weapons for the target and the user to work with. If you fired JUST charged shots, your cycles would look a lot different. If you treated the SR like a 3shot charged burst AR, you could probably lower the max DPS, but end up with even more damage over time by avoiding overheating.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1585	Posted - 2013.09.13 21:11:00 - [8] - Quote Lightning Bolt2 wrote: yay... a ScR nerf thread! saying thats its more OP than the OP AR! No, it explicitly is not a nerf ScR thread. It is a SR is > AR in situation A while AR > SR in situation B. I've clearly laid out some scenarios where AR is better. It's up to you to stop just playing rock, paper, scissors with just the biggest rocks you can find.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1779	Posted - 2013.11.12 21:08:00 - [9] - Quote I think this is relevant to the TTK discussion.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1779	Posted - 2013.11.13 17:54:00 - [10] - Quote Snaps Tremor wrote: Well in your defence you're doing exactly what CCP seem to be doing. Unfortunately it only takes playing the game to see the gap between the on-paper version and reality. There is more going on in a real-time shooting game than the trading of damage numbers. I started the thread to try and get people to talk in real terms what they wanted in terms of skill to play into TTK and survivability and damage application. As of yet, I haven't seen anyone willing to say that Time To Kill should be X seconds for a new player killing a protosuit/pubstomper and Y for a protostomper killing another protostomper. Everyone is just content to complain and say that their idea of fixing it (only with abstract design ideas) is the right one. My main point here, like some of the critics pointing out my modeling problems, is that DPS is a slippery thing to talk about. 3 different weapons may all have a 500 average DPS. Weapon A may do this continuously for 4 seconds up to a 30 m range. A semi-auto Weapon B may get 500 max DPS on average across the max RoF of it's clip out to 50m. A charged rifle could make spikes in DPS above 500 for a portion of a second but with the risk of overheating and dropping its average DPS down below 500. I don't want weapons that all have boring continuous fire rates. And as long as you can get big bursty damage profiles for some weapons, you will have the experience of fast TTK. But when you include things like 'moving to contact for short range weapons' and cooking grenades, and charging the weapons, the REAL TTK is pretty high.

Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1781	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:54:00 - [11] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: gbghg wrote: So in the time it takes a HMG to do 1200 damage,assuming that we manage to empty the clip without overheating, the AR does nearly 1600. And you said that's assuming both are inside their optimals? If you are referring to the first chart, it is ONLY damage in that given second. I had another I chose not to post which was like the third chart, but showing all the weapons from chart one. Using that data, the summed damage over time, when the HMG has done 1200 damage (600DPS for 2 secs), the AR will have only done 850 (425 DPS for 2 secs). -Again this is actually no skills applied to any weapon and 100% accuracy. But yes, its in the optimals of each weapon for the first 3 charts. 1) At its supposed optimal range, assuming perfect aim, the HMG will only do a small fraction of 1200 damage in two seconds, due to dispersion. 2) Optimal Range is meaningless for the HMG due to dispersion. Yeah you are completely right on my up front admission about accuracy. I like your input. Accuracy and dispersion have to be intimately tied into 'damage application' in the TTK discussion. If your weapon is SUPPOSED to have an optimal range out to 30m, but your bullets fire in a cone with a 2m diameter at 30m, your DPS at 30m is MUCH less. If you then tune DPS on an unmoving dropsuit at that range receiving a fraction of the bullets, you directly increase DPS at closer ranges with tighter dispersion. It would be nice to know what exactly the 'accuracy' stat means on the stats. To this day, I don't think they have told us. Are these charts accurate depictions of in game DPS? No. Are these charts more useful in showing how/when/where weapons can best apply damage especially compared to the anecdotal refrains of "I'm always dieing way to fast!" ...I hope so.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1781	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:05:00 - [12] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Lightning Bolt2 wrote: yay... a ScR nerf thread! saying thats its more OP than the OP AR! No, it explicitly is not a nerf ScR thread. It is a SR is > AR in situation A while AR > SR in situation B. I've clearly laid out some scenarios where AR is better. It's up to you to stop just playing rock, paper, scissors with just the biggest rocks you can find. Thing is... any weapon > ar in situation X while AR > said weapon in situations Y, Z, U and W... Most of the weapons in this game have a niche except the ar (and scr to a certain extent). That't like playing a game of rock paper siscors where the scisors beats both the rock and paper... Sorry you can't convince me that the AR is great outside of >45m. That's a lot of niche where it sucks. And in games where the opponent always plays scissors and scissors always beats paper and rock, I just make sure I cut off all my opponents fingers so they are forced to play rock while I always play paper. Force them into their weakness.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1784	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:43:00 - [13] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Lightning Bolt2 wrote: yay... a ScR nerf thread! saying thats its more OP than the OP AR! No, it explicitly is not a nerf ScR thread. It is a SR is > AR in situation A while AR > SR in situation B. I've clearly laid out some scenarios where AR is better. It's up to you to stop just playing rock, paper, scissors with just the biggest rocks you can find. My issue is that currently with the AR vs the HMG Scissors cuts Rock. I see you there. What I would suggest for Heavy Weapons isn't that the DPS should necessarily increase, but they should do a kind of knockback with their high RoF. That way HMG vs. AR means that if you catch the heavy with his back turned, yes, he's probably dead, justifiably. But if he starts to get a shot on you, you will have a hard time getting damage on him consistantly.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1784	Posted - 2013.11.13 21:03:00 - [14] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Lightning Bolt2 wrote: yay... a ScR nerf thread! saying thats its more OP than the OP AR! No, it explicitly is not a nerf ScR thread. It is a SR is > AR in situation A while AR > SR in situation B. I've clearly laid out some scenarios where AR is better. It's up to you to stop just playing rock, paper, scissors with just the biggest rocks you can find. My issue is that currently with the AR vs the HMG Scissors cuts Rock. I see you there. What I would suggest for Heavy Weapons isn't that the DPS should necessarily increase, but they should do a kind of knockback with their high RoF. That way HMG vs. AR means that if you catch the heavy with his back turned, yes, he's probably dead, justifiably. But if he starts to get a shot on you, you will have a hard time getting damage on him consistantly. That, or a Sharp Shooter skill similar to what the SMG has to reduce dispersion. Dispersion is dramatically shortening the effective range way below what it should be. Edit: I have also noticed this week that I canGÇÖt sprint when getting hit, whether it is an HMG or an AR, or whatever shooting me. I am hoping this is a glitch because it is incredibly frustrating. I am not sure I would wish that on my enemies. I feel like that speed effect of being hit has always been there, only happens though if it starts before you start to move i think. I don't think it stops you while you are sprinting.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1785	Posted - 2013.11.13 21:23:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Pssst, someone did a test video, and showed that HMG's do 99% of their DPS if you can aim right at the middle since the crosshair is misleading, the HMG is laser accurate. So his calculations are correct. Yeah, I've figured that the 'accuracy' stat is hitscan based as a function of the reticle's distance from the center of a target, or from the center of a hitbox, or a certain radius from the hitbox.