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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2796
   |
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Phew! This has taken me the better part of the night, some of you just don't hold still!
My thanks to all of the snipers and turret gunners out there that did though!
So a little back story is in order. This was mostly inspired during a discussion in which another player provided a line graph showing the efficacy at range for a Laser Rifle. I decided, why stop there? This is something that we all need/want!
This is the first step as part of my soon-to-come-to-fruition project: The Dust 514 Orientation Initiative which is being made to provide constant up to date knowledge materials to both new and veteran players in an easy to read manner, using as little spreadsheets as absolutely possible. The first part of the project is nearing completion and I've only a few more weapons to go (mostly because I can't use them yet!)
So, without further adieu I'd like to share with you all what I've got so far:
http://i.imgur.com/fboaQfS.png
It's still a work in progress and this one is only against shields as the values for armor is a little harder to pull off, but I like where it's going so far.
Feedback? Suggestions? General comments? Hate mail? |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2798
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ah! That's the guy who inspired all of this, by the way.
Saw one of those beautiful graphs and immediately thought, "Holy hell this needs to be in-game somewhere."
Honestly not trying to steal the thunder - I didn't know more graphs existed! I need to get a hold of this guy for sure though. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2801
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
SCAT mania wrote:you should get someone with and alt and sync in FW to test. would be alot easier getting the exact ranges.
Nah, it's easy enough aiming at a friendly - shows the same information and a lot of times you can find a sniper perched up somewhere that doesn't seem to mind you staring at them all day =P |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2803
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
smartlayer wrote:Nice work
I'm thinking about it since long but i'm lazy+bad at math
I think to kill the phantasm or the fog of war about the gap of power between players at differents states of developpment, it could be interesting to do a graphic with a little image of a dust soldier of various sizes to show overall power of a grunt at : (for example)
at start
after one week of play
after one month of play
after 6 months of play
after 1 year of play
considering :
the guy play one hour daily and dont use booster nor buy aurum
- invest in skills at 50% that raise damages
- invest in skills at 50% that raise hit points
The size would be proportionnal to the average number we would get between total hp and dps
and of course giving overall (reasonable) price of the fitting the guy will use at the various level of his evolution
it could kill or lower the general idea that people can have about the game : "it's pay to win" / "you can't catch up"
Well, that'll be a bigger project but for now I do have a line graph showing the disparity between paying for boosters and not paying for boosters over a six month period =D
http://i.imgur.com/bOxw235.png
Edit: Huh. Not sure why it decided to format one line's number values but not the other. I'll fix that right quick. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2803
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Phew! This has taken me the better part of the night, some of you just don't hold still! My thanks to all of the snipers and turret gunners out there that did though! So a little back story is in order. This was mostly inspired during a discussion in which another player provided a line graph showing the efficacy at range for a Laser Rifle. I decided, why stop there? This is something that we all need/want! This is the first step as part of my soon-to-come-to-fruition project: The Dust 514 Orientation Initiative which is being made to provide constant up to date knowledge materials to both new and veteran players in an easy to read manner, using as little spreadsheets as absolutely possible. The first part of the project is nearing completion and I've only a few more weapons to go (mostly because I can't use them yet!) So, without further adieu I'd like to share with you all what I've got so far: http://i.imgur.com/fboaQfS.pngIt's still a work in progress and this one is only against shields as the values for armor is a little harder to pull off, but I like where it's going so far. Feedback? Suggestions? General comments? Hate mail? Also maybe another good way to look at this would be as a % of total max damage. Because then you get an idea of each weapon's relative usefulness at each range. At 50m, (its falloff) AR does about 50% max to shields while ASR does 70%. At 65 m AR does about 45% while SR does about 65%. The SR 'falloff' (not ASR) should be around 70-75m where it would do 50% max damage. Even further, what you can't really see is the paper DPS at each range. Its hard to know how much would exactly hit at each range, but you COULD assume 100% and then just go from there.
I'm actually working on another graph (Bar Graph) showing the DPS values of each weapon ranging from lowest to highest, that one is rather straight forward as it's just some basic division of RPM, although some weapons are a bit harder to calculate - like the Laser Rifle.
Another thing I plan on doing is showing Radar charts (or, Spider Graphs, rather) showing the prominent values of the dropsuits between one another. You might remember this from stuff like Chromehounds or Armored Core. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2808
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nguruthos IX wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:smartlayer wrote:Nice work
I'm thinking about it since long but i'm lazy+bad at math
I think to kill the phantasm or the fog of war about the gap of power between players at differents states of developpment, it could be interesting to do a graphic with a little image of a dust soldier of various sizes to show overall power of a grunt at : (for example)
at start
after one week of play
after one month of play
after 6 months of play
after 1 year of play
considering :
the guy play one hour daily and dont use booster nor buy aurum
- invest in skills at 50% that raise damages
- invest in skills at 50% that raise hit points
The size would be proportionnal to the average number we would get between total hp and dps
and of course giving overall (reasonable) price of the fitting the guy will use at the various level of his evolution
it could kill or lower the general idea that people can have about the game : "it's pay to win" / "you can't catch up" Well, that'll be a bigger project but for now I do have a line graph showing the disparity between paying for boosters and not paying for boosters over a six month period =D http://i.imgur.com/bOxw235.pngEdit: Huh. Not sure why it decided to format one line's number values but not the other. I'll fix that right quick. thought active boosters did not raise cap so I fail to see how they can be a factor unless you are adding in some extra post-cap grind games to both sides?
True, they don't raise the cap - but you receive an additional 50% extra from each match. This means that the cap (190,400 SP a week) is not raised, rather a bonus of 95,200 SP is applied.
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2808
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Nice graph, but it would be more meaningful to normalize them to 100% damage.
Hard to do considering that weapons like the Scrambler Rifle deal proportional damage to both shields (120%) and armor (80%)
I would have to include both values for every single weapon which would make the graph entirely too cluttered.
I will work on a separate one later on showing the percentages against armor at range though. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2818
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 15:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kage Roth wrote:Awesome work. Though I kind of lament the lack of the standard SR...That said, I know how much work these things are, so props for that.
It's coming very soon actually, I just need to get off my *** and buy an Aurum SR and then I can input the data.
Yanno, provided someone doesn't kill me and I have to waste more Aurum on graphs =P
Spectral Clone wrote:Nice graphs!
Would be interesting to be able to plot the effective damage per shot given some probability to hit with each bullet. For example 75%, 95% and 100% hit rate probability.
Such a graph could indicate which weapon is best in average when it comes to lag susceptibility, player skill, hit detection code, etc.
Might not be necessary though, we all know AR is king already...
I can actually make a pseudo-accurate graph with this using the weapons' accuracy rating, assuming it has any genuine validity besides being just a number. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2821
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 15:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I'm actually working on another graph (Bar Graph) showing the DPS values of each weapon ranging from lowest to highest, that one is rather straight forward as it's just some basic division of RPM, although some weapons are a bit harder to calculate - like the Laser Rifle.
Another thing I plan on doing is showing Radar charts (or, Spider Graphs, rather) showing the prominent values of the dropsuits between one another. You might remember this from stuff like Chromehounds or Armored Core. I think straight DPS would be artificial. DPS over time would make more sense. A good chart could maybe be a stacked bar graph or something that shows: Burst DPS: max DPS in best second regardless of reload/accuracy (AR: no skills = 425) Magazine DPS: avg DPS before a reload (AR: 408) Magazine Damage: assume all rounds in clip hit (AR: 2000) Lifetime DPS: avg DPS to empty a gun at max use (AR: 276) Then you could even modify it for shields/armor for each stat. There is a lot of data out there to visualize and a lot of ways to visualize it. A thing that's hard to understand is that weapons cycle through their damage potential differently. Like with a mass driver or a scrambler rifle you can pop out of cover just long enough to do 2 quick shots that could do 500-700 damage in 2 seconds. You would have to have a target dead in your crosshairs for a full 2 seconds to do that with a STD AR. Then when you combine that idea with your tank, you really only need a tank that will last you for the time that you choose to be exposed, plus whatever buffer you feel comfortable with to do incidental damage.
That's really something for multiple graphs, hard to convey that much information in one go because the second you put in "2000" as a data entry the scale of the graph gets skewed and suddenly your magazine DPS looks miniscule!
ladwar wrote:nice and notice the laser is "long range" but has the lowest damage at 90m+. personally i think the ARs and SrC should have much lower damage at those ranges and the LR has of slope down after 85m. a lot of the weapons weapons slopes are just wonky. and have been extended where they shouldn't of have. SMG 120m LOL anyone?
I found this rather surprising as well. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2821
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 15:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oh, look! Another graph!
Racial Logistics strengths and weaknesses radar chart, inspired by the (now dead) game Chromehounds.
This is just a work-in progress. It's mostly just a clutter test to see how much I can add before it looks too jumbled to be readable.
http://i.imgur.com/5znjzrI.png |
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2821
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Posted - 2013.09.12 15:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
bjorn morkai wrote:HEY! Where the hell is my HMG!? What kind of fuckin useless chart is this!? Got no damn HMG! How the hell am I suppose to use this!? It's like having toast and you got all the butter an jam n ****, but no damn knife! Not even a pocket knife!
Naw this looks ******* awesome. But in all honesty why no HMG? Is that going to be your next project? This looks like a light weapons chart, so you'll be working on heavy weapons next?
The laser is the most surrpising. You really gotta be in a specific range for it to be useful. That's pretty neat.
Flaylock is also good to know, I'm still trying to figure out how to use that damn thing...
Sorry! I don't have skills in it so I'm going to have to use an aurum variant with a militia Heavy at some point. The Assault/Burst HMGs are going to be tricky though as I don't plan on dropping SP into a weapon I don't like/can't use, but I'm sure I can find someone to help out with that.
Beren Hurin wrote:I think they are going to take a pass on all of these for 1.5. Especially if the new rifles are in it would make sense to make sure everything is in its place.
I'm prepared for that! The graphs are fully modular and can be edited on the fly - once I have a legitimate site up and running (working on that) I'll be able to switch them out easily as new information becomes available.
Being unemployed also helps get that information in faster xD |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2823
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 15:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
bjorn morkai wrote:I'm not sure how much info you're going to get from the burst HMG. It does this weird thing where it gets more accurate at the end of its firing cycle. Kind of confusing.
Accuracy doesn't actually affect efficacy though, that's the part I'm grateful for.
Using the SMG as an example - you CAN do damage to someone at 100 meters but that's entirely if you hit them! |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2824
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 16:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:I could see DPS really start to matter in a different way if and when we do get PvE. If you have to have something like 1000 DPS to burn something down for a few seconds before its shields immediately come back, that would be crazy hard.
How crazy would it be if you had to alpha through 10000 HP of shield with a 2 second regen of 2500 HP/s just to take out 2000 HP armor.
That'd actually be really awesome o_o |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2824
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 16:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
ladwar wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:bjorn morkai wrote:I'm not sure how much info you're going to get from the burst HMG. It does this weird thing where it gets more accurate at the end of its firing cycle. Kind of confusing. Accuracy doesn't actually affect efficacy though, that's the part I'm grateful for. Using the SMG as an example - you CAN do damage to someone at 100 meters but that's entirely if you hit them! ADS is pretty much 100% accurate.
You ever tried shooting pixels at 100 meters? O_o;
Was hard enough just putting the retical on a non-moving target, lol. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2839
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 00:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Original post now updated to show all HMG variants and Scrambler Rifles.
Enjoy  |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2851
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 08:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Powerh8er wrote:Im not sure this is correct. I feel my hmg has got better range than the Ar, maybe because most Ar users are good dancers, but not so good at shooting.
This would probably be because your HMG gets more accurate over range =)
Though, it is interesting. I might have to test later to see if that increased accuracy has any effect on efficacy, though I doubt it. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2871
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 14:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quick update guys - after I finish some studies I'm going to be running tests on the SMG and Scrambler Pistol variants as they are the only ones I don't think I have yet. Stay frosty..! Or... Something. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2899
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 05:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Musta Tornius wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Quick update guys - after I finish some studies I'm going to be running tests on the SMG and Scrambler Pistol variants as they are the only ones I don't think I have yet. Stay frosty..! Or... Something. Oi, did you miss my question or are you ignoring me? :D Anyway, do you mind if I link this thread from my range thread? It's got some great info in it.
Sure, absolutely!
Edit: Oh, yeah I just missed it sorry xD |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2900
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Marc Rime wrote:I like the graph ;).
EDIT: Looks to me like ARs could do with a much shorter falloff, especially now that they hit for >20% damage way past that anyway.
Eh, Assault Scrambler Rifles just need lower damage, imo. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2908
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 15:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:
This would make sense, but if the burst is supposed to represent the minmatar combat rifle, you'd think it would be the one getting a bit more range and the AR would be a little shorter than it is. If the minmatar combat rifle is closer range optimal with an earlier drop off it would either have to be higher DPS than AR, making it a different concept than Eve, or it would have to have a very long falloff with a moderate DPS so that it would actually do more damage than plasma well into plasma's falloff.
The Minnie CR should have range to it but less ROF. It needs to fit with the playstyle of the suits which are speedy but cant tank as well as others. It needs to support hit-n-run tactics which is all about range right now with hit detection the way it is. I agree that it should have a much more gradual falloff than the AR.
Quite the contrary, I think the Combat Rifle should centralize around high rate of fire and lower damage output.
Now, these numbers aren't correct, I'm just using them as an example because I'm studying at the moment (lol) and can't get on the game but....
If the Burst AR's Damage is 50 and RoF is 10 (per second) than the Combat Rifle's Damage should be 45.45 and RoF as 11
Crude example, I know, but considering that the Assault Rifle and the Assault Scrambler Rifle are so close in the DPS it just makes sense that the Burst AR, the weapon the Gallente use to emulate the Combat Rifle, would also be close. Likewise, the Assault Combat Rifle could have similar DPS and performance as the Assault Rifle.
Just the general theme of things it looks like. I'd honestly prefer it if the weapons were more unique, with the Combat Rifle having less overall DPS but slightly longer range with a faster fire rate - kind of like a suped up SMG |
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3968
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Posted - 2013.11.29 19:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Nice chart.
Thread got necroed O_o;
Have to update it (eventually) with the 1.7 changes/new content.
Fix the Frames, Fix the game
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4260
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Posted - 2014.01.01 14:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Phew! This has taken me the better part of the night, some of you just don't hold still! My thanks to all of the snipers and turret gunners out there that did though! So a little back story is in order. This was mostly inspired during a discussion in which another player provided a line graph showing the efficacy at range for a Laser Rifle. I decided, why stop there? This is something that we all need/want! This is the first step as part of my soon-to-come-to-fruition project: The Dust 514 Orientation Initiative which is being made to provide constant up to date knowledge materials to both new and veteran players in an easy to read manner, using as little spreadsheets as absolutely possible. The first part of the project is nearing completion and I've only a few more weapons to go (mostly because I can't use them yet!) So, without further adieu I'd like to share with you all what I've got so far: http://i.imgur.com/fboaQfS.pngIt's still a work in progress and this one is only against shields as the values for armor is a little harder to pull off, but I like where it's going so far. Feedback? Suggestions? General comments? Hate mail? EDIT: SP Accrual Graph: http://i.imgur.com/bOxw235.pngUpdated Graph (includes HMGs/Scrambler Rifle): http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png I don't want to be a douchebag because that's a really great initiative. But these values are wrong or "not complete". You didn't mention what tier of weapons was used. Proto weapons have a better range than STD/ADV. Adv have a better range than STD. A Duvollle have not the same range than an GEK-38. That's why proto weapons seems so powerful and cost so much ISK that's not just for 2 more damage you know.... http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65468/1/rangeprofiles.jpgAnd that's why "Assault Scrambler" seems powerful in your graph. It's Tier 4 Weapon (Level 4) and you've compared it to a Tier 1 weapon (STD)
The "Assault Scrambler" feels power in this graph because it is powerful in this graph. It's a pretty well disputed issue that it's DPS - which is almost congruent with the Plasma Rifle - is too high for it's longer range.
I haven't updated this graph since the time of it's creation, though I intend to at some point now that I have all of the weapon skills at level five and can use all the prototype variants.
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