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unique1 ID
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
0
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Posted - 2013.09.12 04:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Long post ahead, get comfy.
I would very much like to know the true nature of stacking penalties in DUST 514. I have combed the forums and other resources -conflicting information is everywhere. I think we need an official word on how stacking penalties are working within the game, and I don't think that's asking much.
**Please; if you do not know something for certain - do not post. **
If you DO know something for certain - please post, but provide references/solid calculations to back your statements up so that we are not left to take you for your word. We don't know you. This is the internet. Your word don't mean much.
There seem to be several resources which people point to on the issue:
[1] http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalties
[2] http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_penalty#Mechanics
[3] http://www.isktheguide.com/ - Page 96
I think most who have researched the issue agree on what the stacking penalties are:
1st Mod - 100%
2nd Mod - 86.91%
3rd Mod - 57.06%
4th Mod - 28.30%
5th Mod - No. Don't do it.
Within rounding errors, the 3 sources I listed above agree on these values. OK - with that out of the way...
The Real Question: How do stacking penalties work when combining modules of the same type, but differing levels. For example, if I stack a complex damage mod and an enhanced damage mod - is there a stacking penalty? If so, which module gets the stacking penalty? It makes a difference if I'm getting 86.91% of a 10% damage mod versus 86.91% of a 5% damage mod.
Resource [2] would say yes, there would be a stacking penalty in that example, and it gets applied to the lower level mod. So we'd expect:
10%*1.00 + 5%*0.8691 = 10 + 4.35 = 14.35% Bonus.
If you use the stacking bonus calculator provided on that page, it seems to show the individual bonuses correctly, however the total bonus is listed as 14.78%. The fact that the tool is unable to add 2 values together properly makes me doubt the tool entirely. Not to mention it is a wiki (editable) page.
I have tried in game to test by stacking modules and seeing the resulting outcome - unfortunately I have limited access to modules with stacking penalties AND adjusted stats in the display. Nevertheless, this again lead me to some bad math. I'll explain my test, here:
I used an adv. Amarr logi suit and stacked with 2 militia cardiac regulators (MCR), I have no skill in biotics, so no passive/efficacy bonuses to deal with.
Base stamina = 140
MCR gives +25% to max stamina --> 140*0.25 = 35
Equipping 1st MCR gives me 175 stamina. Cool.
Equipping 2nd MCR gives me 213.02 stamina. Not cool, well sort of.
This second MCR apparently adds 38.02 to my stamina. More than the 35 that it should be doing without stacking penalties. It appears the 2nd MCR is applying a 25% bonus to my stamina AFTER the 1st MCR is incorporated.
Again - this one example which is clearly not working/displaying correctly leads me to doubt all numbers coming out of the in game display on this matter.
So PLEASE DEV's, weigh in on this issue. We have no trusted source (none that I could find anyways), and no ability to reliably test the issue ourselves.
*And again - if you are not a DEV with secret insider information, please post with resources/calculations. No 'I'm pretty sure..' or 'I once heard..' comments. They only add to the confusion.
Thanks for reading. I hope this actually leads to something and wasn't a waste of time. |
Sirpidey Adtur
Aloren Foundations
50
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Posted - 2013.09.12 04:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
First mod: 25% bonus. 100% efficiency.
.25 * 1.0(the penalty) = .25
.25 * 140 = 35
35 + 140 = 175
Second mod: 25% bonus. 86.91% efficiency
.25 * .8691 = 0.217275
0.217275 * 175 = 38.023125
38.023125 + 175 = 213.023125 |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
102
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Posted - 2013.09.12 05:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sirpidey has it right. You're doing it wrong. 
As for mods of different levels they should be ordered with the best mod getting no stacking penalty, the second best the 1st stacking penalty, etc.
So say you have a complex damage mod (10%), an enhanced (5%) and a basic (3%).
Damage dealt = 1 * 1.1 * (1 + 0.87*0.05) * (1 + 0.57*0.3) = 1.17
There may be a bug at the moment where the UI (I haven't tested it in game) incorrectly calculates the stacking penalties for bonuses that reduce a state. Such as resistance mods that reduce damage taken. The calculation orders the modules in the opposite order. |
unique1 ID
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
0
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Posted - 2013.09.12 05:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sigh.....Did you even read the post?
Sirpidey finds the same values that I showed. They do not make sense. They show the first mod giving 35 stamina, and the second giving 38...this would suggest the second mod is MORE effective than the first even after the stacking penalty. This is clearly not the intended behaviour. |
Sirpidey Adtur
Aloren Foundations
52
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Posted - 2013.09.12 05:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
unique1 ID wrote:Sigh.....Did you even read the post?
Sirpidey finds the same values that I showed. They do not make sense. They show the first mod giving 35 stamina, and the second giving 38...this would suggest the second mod is MORE effective than the first even after the stacking penalty. This is clearly not the intended behaviour.
That's how it works in eve, and that's how it's been for a while.
Stacking penalties were introduced to prevent ridiculous exponential increases. It's well known in eve, that the second damage mod will increase DPS more than the first one, but after that, it shows a decrease. |
unique1 ID
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
0
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Posted - 2013.09.12 05:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sirpidey Adtur wrote:unique1 ID wrote:Sigh.....Did you even read the post?
Sirpidey finds the same values that I showed. They do not make sense. They show the first mod giving 35 stamina, and the second giving 38...this would suggest the second mod is MORE effective than the first even after the stacking penalty. This is clearly not the intended behaviour. That's how it works in eve, and that's how it's been for a while. Stacking penalties were introduced to prevent ridiculous exponential increases. It's well known in eve, that the second damage mod will increase DPS more than the first one, but after that, it shows a decrease.
I've never played eve so I don't know about that side of things. What I do know is the in game description, and the 3 references I mentioned would suggest a stacking penalty on the second module. You could be right, but I'm certainly not taking your word on it. No offense. I implore you to show me some reliable proof.
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Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
102
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Posted - 2013.09.12 07:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Reliable proof? Like the way his maths matches the in game stats?
It's always worked this way and it makes sense to a disappointingly small proportion of the playerbase. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1044
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Posted - 2013.09.12 07:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sirpidey and Garth is completely correct on this one.
The reason the second mod actually gives more of a bonus than the first mod is because everything is multiplied, and not just added together.
So if you have two skills and are using two mods as well, the math would be like this:
Base value * skill 1 * skill 2 * mod 1 * mod 2 with stacking penalty.
And not:
Base value + skill 1 + skill 2 + mod 1 + mod 2 with stacking penalty.
That is how it works.
As for a second mod actually giving a bigger bonus than the first, that happens if the bonus is great enough. If using two 10% damage mods, the second mod won't give more than the first, but in your case with the MCRs, the second MCR does indeed give more than the first. |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Seraphim Auxiliaries
378
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
My data sheets work as above when doing build calcs, but how should I factor in innate resist. In my case a vehicle having 10% shield or/and armour resist from skill point bonuses?
eg:
10% Armour resist from skills
Mod 1 = 25%
Mod 2 = 25%
or for that matter if I have :
1) Innate shield resists from skills of 10% (i.e shields resist 10% of all damage)
2) Module 1 - 7% increase to shields
3) Module 3 - 7% increase to shields
4) High slot 30% shield resist (assume passive here for simplicity)
I factor my shields to be boosted by the two 7% (using the formulas to calc stacking penalties). But then how can I factot the 10% innate resist? Before the 30% module? Currently I assume there is no penalty so give it the full 10% then penalty stack the modules as usual and add the stacked resist onto the 10%.
RIght or wrong? Do we even really know? |
Haerr
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
35
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Posted - 2013.09.12 09:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
The bugs in DUST 514 calculations of stacking penalties are clearly visible while using armor plate modules.
A 0% penalty towards movement counts has being 'higher' than a 5% movement penalty.
- Resulting in the 0% module being first in the stack, meaning that the 5% movement penalty is reduced to Gëê 4.3455% by stacking penalties.
-- This can be compounded even further by having more 0% penalties in the stack.
Since in this case it is a 'beneficial' bug to the players most won't care but when 'Lower = Better' for the player this bug will anoy the crap out of players.
Scan Precision = Lower is Better
Scan Profile = Lower is Better
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unique1 ID
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
1
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Posted - 2013.09.12 09:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Sirpidey and Garth is completely correct on this one.
The reason the second mod actually gives more of a bonus than the first mod is because everything is multiplied, and not just added together.
So if you have two skills and are using two mods as well, the math would be like this:
Base value * skill 1 * skill 2 * mod 1 * mod 2 with stacking penalty.
And not:
Base value + skill 1 + skill 2 + mod 1 + mod 2 with stacking penalty.
That is how it works.
As for a second mod actually giving a bigger bonus than the first, that happens if the bonus is great enough. If using two 10% damage mods, the second mod won't give more than the first, but in your case with the MCRs, the second MCR does indeed give more than the first.
How do you know this is how it works? The resources I mention would suggest that the bonuses add.
You say they are correct and yet suggest the 2nd module gets a stacking penalty - Sirpidey suggests otherwise.
I really think this is an issue that a DEV will ultimately need to settle - the information that is out there just does not seem to match up.
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Bendtner92
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1046
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Posted - 2013.09.12 09:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
unique1 ID wrote:How do you know this is how it works? The resources I mention would suggest that the bonuses add.
You say they are correct and yet suggest the 2nd module gets a stacking penalty - Sirpidey suggests otherwise.
I really think this is an issue that a DEV will ultimately need to settle - the information that is out there just does not seem to match up.
Sigh.
Sirpidey didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe you should try reading his post this time?
Your links are saying that two 10% damage mods give a 19.6% bonus.
If multiplied then 1.1 * 1.087 (stacking penalty on second mod) = 1.1957. Round up to 1.196 and you have your 19.6% bonus that your OWN links confirm.
If you simply add them together then 10% + 8.7% (stacking penalty on second mod) = 18.7%, which is not what your links say.
There's no need for further confirmation since we have already showed you how it works, even with numbers from ingame.
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unique1 ID
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
1
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Posted - 2013.09.12 10:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:
Sigh.
Sirpidey didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe you should try reading his post this time?
Your links are saying that two 10% damage mods give a 19.6% bonus.
If multiplied then 1.1 * 1.087 (stacking penalty on second mod) = 1.1957. Round up to 1.196 and you have your 19.6% bonus that your OWN links confirm.
If you simply add them together then 10% + 8.7% (stacking penalty on second mod) = 18.7%, which is not what your links say.
There's no need for further confirmation since we have already showed you how it works, even with numbers from ingame.
Thank you. I think I see it now. I was probably placing too much faith in ISK the guide which appears to have it wrong. From said guide:
"For example, if a player were to add a module that boosted the weaponGÇÖs damage by 10%, then a second
identical module, would only add about 8,7% instead of the full 10%. The total increase would be 18,7% more
damage instead of the expected 20%."
The way you've outlined it brings consistency to the dust wiki, eve wiki, and in-game stats. That's pretty convincing.
I do think the description on the dust wiki fails to explain this, a proper example like the one you've gone through could go a long way to helping other players avoid this confusion. I'm sure I wasn't the only one confused on the issue.
A DEV confirmation could still be useful - It would make it easy for a confused player to find the correct answer with confidence in the future. There are several threads discussing this and the issue was probably settled there too, but without something official, I just assumed nobody knew WTF was going on. |
D34NOS MAZDA
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
110
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Posted - 2013.09.12 11:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ok hopefully in simple terms
They are compounded on top of one another not!!! added together.
You take the standard value
140
then do the calculation one mod at a time
140 *0.25 (the bonus) *1.00 (the penalty) = 35
140 + 35 = 175
Then calculate the second mod but you use the result from the first calculation as it is compounded
175*0.25 (the bonus) *0.8691 (the penalty) = 38.023125
175 + 38.023125 = 213.023125
then continue with the third mod using the answer from your second mod as they are compounded
213.023125 * etc etc
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