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Vell0cet
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
186
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Posted - 2013.09.10 19:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
First, thanks for putting the time/effort to test, edit and upload this.
I think the video clearly shows that the magnetism is limited to fairly short distances. My hope is that the design intent here is to discourage the chop strafing tactic. Trying to hit someone who is spastically maneuvering around is not fun, it's annoying and obnoxious. People don't evade fire this way in real life combat, and I hate seeing in games. One of DUST's greatest aspects is the fear of loss of your expensive suit leads to gameplay that is much more similar to real life. There's a tension between wanting to complete the objective, but not wanting to be killed in the process: risk vs. reward, duty vs. survival. Chop strafing and bunny hopping destroy this illusion, as do evasive rambo players who can take out several players while dodging fire. This isn't "hardcore," is evidence that things were broken.
Ultimately, the most important aspect of AA is if it helps retain new players significantly better than before. DUST needs to grow by a couple orders of magnitude to have much of a future (and for us to see all of the amazing ideas CCP has for this game become reality), and that's not going to happen if new players aren't sticking around. AA is in-line with industry standards (if not weaker), and consequently will match new players' (and game reviewers') expectations for how the aiming experience on a console should feel.
I do agree that the TTK has become too low, and the best suggestion I've heard to fix it (and not reverting to chop strafing/bunny hopping) is to reduce all weapon damage by the 10% that was added at the uprising launch. Some weapons will need to be buffed back some, but that can be handled on a case-by-case basis. This will result in module choices having a greater impact on gameplay. Also scouts need a speed buff so it's easier to break AA, but still prevents chop-strafing tactics.
Since 1.4 matches have been the best I've ever played in DUST so far. They tend to play out more realistically to how a real firefight would, there are much fewer 1-sided battles and less proto-stomping in general. I've been getting a few more kills per match and dieing significantly more than before. Combat feels more tactical, with cover being more important than ever before.
I realize that players at the highest levels want to be rewarded for skill more. I have proposed a compromise solution that I think is fair to them, but still keeps gameplay fun for the other 75% of us. AA should have 3 settings [Standard] which is how things are now, [Weak] which has the effects reduced, and possibly 0 magnetism, and [Off]. [Standard ] is available only in pub matches (which are in highsec and has been stated by CCP that they want to be friendly for everyone); it's not available in FW or PC. [Weak] is available everywhere, and conveys a small SP bonus that won't count towards the SP cap (maybe 2%). [Off] is obviously available everywhere and it provides an even better SP bonus (say 10%). This seems like a very reasonable compromise that won't turn off new players, still gives vets who like AA the option, and rewards the most elite players the most. It also means that to compete at the highest levels (i.e. FW & PC) you need to be a better shot. |
Vell0cet
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
188
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
hgghyujhin wrote: real life combat people cant take multiple rounds with complete indifferenceGǪ
If we were really mercs fighting a war in the future with powerful, customizable, and expensive drop suits, you absolutely could take multiple rounds (the suits are designed to do this). By realistic, I don't mean realistic in today's world, but realistic within the context of the New Eden science-ficition universe. I think if we suspended disbelief and were really fighting like that, then mercs wouldn't be chop strafing to avoid fire, we would be using our arms to aim, and killing guys maneuvering like this just fine. Because we're limited to shooting with our thumbs, the AA is a tool to compensate for this.
Quote:GǪI think you are looking for a cover based twitch shooter, which is not what this game presented its self as which is why a lot of vets are fighting the change because, they invested a lot of time playing this game when it was so broken it was largely unplayable, because they liked what this game was promising to be, but this level of AA has taken it the exact opposite direction.
Did you even read the rest of my post? I have no desire for a highly twitch-based game, but more of a team-based strategic and tactical one, where choices mater and teamwork is important. I think the gameplay should focus on rewarding the right module choices, engaging with the right weapons to counter your target's weaknesses at the right ranges at the right time with teamwork. I like how the current gameplay encourages using cover (instead of chop strafing) to survive, and how it relies on your teammates laying down a screen of covering fire to keep enemies head's down to allow other players to press forward. This is much more compelling gameplay than spastic, twitchy players dancing around evading fire.
I posted several suggestions to reward vets for a more hardcore play style. I proposed reducing weapon damage across the board by 10%, which should be an advantage to vets in most situations. This will increase the TTK and make module decisions more relevant to how a fight plays out. I also proposed that in FW and PC there would only be weak AA or no AA available, and give them an SP bonus to boot for rewarding their skill. If you were genuinely concerned with more skilled gameplay those suggestions should sound really good to you. What it won't do is allow you to protostomp newbies with impunity in pub matches to pad your KDR and stroke your e-peen. There are a lot of vets who hated the direction gameplay was going. I've been playing since January, and barely played in 1.3 because it was so miserable.
Quote:as far as proto stomping goes........ if a guy or even a couple of squads are red lining you they would have done it with out proto gear, proto stomping isn't because of the gear but due to skill of the player or the presence of good squads. If we had better match making, or some sort of bleed off valve for the top 10% of players and a optional safe place for the bottom 30% this would be a none issue.
I have noticed it's harder to get redlined now, people are generally using cheaper suits in general, saving the good stuff for important matches, which is how the game was designed. I'm pretty sure FW and PC are the places designed for more advanced levels of gameplay. My proposal addresses that, I don't see the problem with keeping pub "hisec" matches accessible to less hardcore players. New Eden is ruthless, and should be, but it's also sustained on the backs of care bears in high sec (if you've ever seen fanfest videos on the EVE economy).
Quote:But strong AA is not the way, Its a **** crutch, that teaches you bad habits and frankly will leave you at a lower level of potential play. But I guess how dare we say any one is bad at something now days. Instead we have to create a system that allows people that cant hit the broad side of a barn, to land enough shots to break that 0-10000 loss streak. We have to pay those people that would rather hide in the red line, because they cant actually play in an area where they could actually get shot. Mean while the sniper that plays on the ground with his team defending multiple objectives at once, and the crack shot that can head shot any one with any weapon in under a second find that all the skills they have been honing are meaningless because they could have sat on their asses and and gotten all the funding and skills they needed given to them. I mean what incentive do they have to be good, or hell to even play anymore..... but thats all right, all that matters is that every one is a winner, and can achieve anything they want with out putting any effort in, because why would any one want to earn what they get.
Look at this newbie's 1.4 gameplay footage. AA doesn't turn him into an amazing player. Pay particular attention to his gun game (or lack thereof). If you think AA will make him competitive with the most elite players, then you're delusional. AA is weaker than most games in the industry. I have proposed several suggestions for how this player can continue to have fun in DUST, but want to improve his skills if he wants to play at the higher levels. You haven't addressed them at all. DUST should "suck in" players like this. Get them hooked and then incentives them to improve (and buy boosters so we all can all still be playing this game next year), not turn them away immediately. |
Vell0cet
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
188
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
hgghyujh wrote:also tell me when you find a way to prevent people with a 5sec ttl, from chop strafing, I can tell you that short of making them the size of the broad side of a barn you can't when you have a long ttl you get people pressing hard and doing every thing they can not to get shot while they press. the ONLY time cover based shooting works is when every weapon in the game has a high alpha or effective high alpha.
I think limited magnetism helps with this significantly. Fast twitchy back-and-forth movements are compensated for while strafing, or sprinting in directions for more than a couple of steps aren't. Reducing all weapon dps by 10% will also help people survive more committed maneuvers while not significantly rewarding chop strafers. |
Vell0cet
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
188
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Actually the AA is stronger in this game than in most FPS games I have played......MAG/BF3/KZ3 (if it even had any I cant remember)/Socom 4 (TPS)
This post has some video footage that shows the competitors:
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