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broonfondle majikthies
P.O.N.A.G.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
233
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Posted - 2013.09.08 09:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was told be a corp mate that only 1 scout suit can defeat the best scanner in the game. I also searched the forums and at least 3 say the same thing. But I looked into it and your math must be wrong.
Overview
The way scanning works for those that don't know. If the profile of the thing your scanning is less than the precision of the scanner it will fail to 'ping' the target
I confirmed this several times lately: -
Basic scanner = 46.
Light frame = 45.
sure enough I scanned the area several times, and thanks to 1.4 I could see all the targets in front of me (and all on radar through vision) but the light frame clearly was not pinged and an error message appeared.
The Proposed Hypotheses
That only the Proto Gallente scout with 4 Complex Dampeners can defeat the best scanner (Precision 15)
The Math
Proto scout skill + Passive Dampening skill + (4 x Complex Dampening mods)
25% + 10% + (4 x 25%) = 135% - and this is without even considering the reduced starting profile of the frame
I'm sorry, but as its a percentage that is just ludicrous overkill. You could have a profile of 2 or 2 billion and -100% would reduce your profile to nothing.
Keeping It Simple - Medium Frames
As they have the easiest profile to do the math with (50. So reducing a profile by 10% = minus 5 profile)
So to reduce the profile of a Mid frame to below 15 all you'd need is to deduce it by 75%:-
50 / 100 =0.5
0.5 x 75 = 37.5
50 - 37.5 = 12.5 (<15 from the proto scanner)
* In short all you'd need is 2 complex dampeners and a basic (inc passive damp bonus) - 3 Low Slots
Finally - Scouts
I'll try to spare the math as I'm sure I'm boring you but their starting profile is only 45 so right off the bat they don't need as much dampening (-70% = profile of 13.5). And their skill means they can have a complex dampener as standard with the skill to level 5.
So even looking at the mid frames you can see all they need to defeat all scanners is 2 Low Slots, which even the Minmatar scout has in its basic frame
So what am I missing? Do you mean to defeat it with no error message? Cus that sounds pointless to me. They still won't know where you are with the error. |
DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles
1101
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Posted - 2013.09.08 09:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
You're not taking into account the stacking penalties on the dampener modules. |
GHOSTLY ANNIHILATOR
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
64
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Posted - 2013.09.08 09:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
So what ur saying is 2 complex dampeners are good enough? |
broonfondle majikthies
P.O.N.A.G.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
233
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:You're not taking into account the stacking penalties on the dampener modules.
I looked - No stacking penalties |
broonfondle majikthies
P.O.N.A.G.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
233
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
GHOSTLY ANNIHILATOR wrote:So what ur saying is 2 complex dampeners are good enough?
On a scout all you'd need is a Complex and a Basic |
DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles
1103
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
broonfondle majikthies wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:You're not taking into account the stacking penalties on the dampener modules. I looked - No stacking penalties
Hmm.. I could swear any percentage based module gets stacking penalties. Whether or not it says in the discription.
It'd be nice if a dev came in and shared the secrets |
broonfondle majikthies
P.O.N.A.G.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
233
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:broonfondle majikthies wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:You're not taking into account the stacking penalties on the dampener modules. I looked - No stacking penalties Hmm.. I could swear any percentage based module gets stacking penalties. Whether or not it says in the discription. It'd be nice if a dev came in and shared the secrets
Hacking modules don't have stacking penalties either and they are a percentage |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3906
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Posted - 2013.09.08 10:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
How you're working things out:
Base value - (module + module + module)% = final value
How you SHOULD be working them out (how they work in EVE, and how testing confirms they work in DUST also):
Base value - module% - module% - module%
Scout suit (Profile 45) with max Scout skill (25%) and profile dampening (10%)
Your working:
45 - (25 + 10)%
45 - 35% = 29.25
How it actually works:
45 - 25% - 10%
45 - 25% = 33.75
33.75 - 10% = 30.375
Assuming no SP investment and somehow magically having 4 Complex Dampeners equipped anyway:
Your method:
45 - (25 + 25 + 25 + 25)%
45 - 100% = 0
How it actually works:
45 - 25% - 25% - 25% - 25%
45 - 25% = 33.75
33.75 - 25% = 25.3125
25.3125 - 25% = 18.984375
18.984375 - 25% = 14.23828125
Because the modules are applied sequentially rather than added together and applied as a single lump sum, and because they're a reduction of the base value instead of an increase, they still have a reduced effect for each additional module even though no stacking penalty is applied. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
174
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 10:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hate to burst your bubble, but stacking penalties do apply for profile dampeners despite the lack of a note on the module description. This was confirmed to me by CCP when I sent in a ticket.
Regarding your question, both light/medium suits with four low slots can defeat the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner by running 4x complex dampeners. Chances are most people wouldn't fit their suit this way though. The Gallente Scout (with proto in the skill) must use at least three dampening modules to go below 15 dB - I think a complex and two enhanced will do it. |
Keeriam Miray
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2013.09.08 12:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
The problem we got here & there about profile signature, precision & scan. Is that not single dev responded (confirmed, rejected) on any topics about REAL numbers or how the **** it REALY works.
Popcorn  way  |
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Cass Caul
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2013.09.08 12:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Your math is bad.
Gallente Scout Suit Operations, -5% to profile per level. total of -25%
Profile Dampening, -2% to profile per level, total of -10%
Complex Profile Dampener 25% reduction to profile.
S(n) = 0.5^[((n-1) / 2.22292081) ^2] Stacking penalties become
-25.00%, -21.73%, -14.26%, and -7.07%
45 * 0.75 * 0.9 * 0.75 * 0.7827 * 0.8574 * 0.9297 =14.2
that's the math for reducing by percentages. |
broonfondle majikthies
P.O.N.A.G.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
235
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
In that case its a matter of having a proper description on the modules. As it stands mine should be right but obviously not due to mechanics not explained anywhere by CCP.
But why not work it out like I said? it would still be balanced and far easier to work out, especially if they are going to introduce cloaking. All they'd have to do it make it a low slot module and clearly it would make the scout suit have to chose between not being seen, not being detected or moving quickly (ok and suit precision).
I have no bubble to burst, just interested in the mechanics. Which obviously leave much to be desired |
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