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KalOfTheRathi
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
652
   |
Posted - 2013.09.06 23:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have experienced both sides of the various Aim Assists in DUST514 since Beta*. That include the version that would move the reticule Away From The Target as well as the latest.
What appears to be happening is that the Aim Assist allows a significant majority of rounds to hit the target if the weapon is pointed in the general direction of a target. This is only in comparison to the Normal number of Hits. Nothing has been documented nor published about the algorithm, its requirements nor the solution that was attempted so this is just my minor reverse engineering the results through testing.
What I would suggest is a Percentage of the rounds hit, as currently. That percentage should be based on a fraction of the rounds that hit when shot by other Mercs of Similar Skills (SP purchased) and Total SP or WP.
Thus Weapon->Skill->Max Hits, Min Hits, Mean Hits are all items that can be extracted from the battle logs used by the devs. A skilled operator will tend to have their rounds hit between Mean and Max. The Aim Assist should allow only Up To Mean. This would allow those needed Aim Assist to have reasonable support but not to dominate the battlefield.
Initially I would set the Aim Assist->Weapon->Max Hits based on experienced players Weapon->Mean and only as a fraction thereof. A random number would set the percentage for this particular clip (trigger pull, whatever) between Mean{90%,50%} and thus would require more ammunition thus limiting total damage.
int Hits(Weapon, Rounds remaining){
return( Weapon->Hits->Mean * random (.5,.9) );
}
To include the rank of the player:
int Hits(Weapon, Rank, Rounds Remaining) {
if Rank > Weapon->Max then Rank == Max;
if Rank < Weapon->Min then Rank = Weapon->Min;
if Rank >= MAX_RANK then Rank = MAX_RANK - 1;
return( Weapon[Rank]->Hits->Mean * random( .5, .9 ) );
}
or to player somehow tweaking Rank
if Rank >= MAX_RANK then RANK = RANK_MIN;
Obviously Rank being < 0 and out of range of the various arrays would need some additional checks.
As data logs would provide more detailed results these values could be tweaked daily with the a simple shell script to parse the battle logs for the required values. Or, it that isn't enough time, use the previous data to build a cumulative value that can be inserted into the server side weekly, or daily when a weapon is first introduced. All of which should be quickly modifiable by nothing more than a text file change or (more likely) a database field update.
Also, even if only as a PR function only, I would publish those values. This would allow those that use Aim Assist or are not as good as 50-90% of the Mean for the better players can make the decision to use Aim Assist or not. Or whether to focus on getting better at their gun game.
When we get the API released it would be beneficial for players to have data that told them how effective they were for each weapon type. I have several ideas that I would like to implement in support of DUST that would be very informative while requiring nothing more than the battle logs released, in compressed format. This would include showing their Max,Mean,Median,Min for each weapon type as well as the ISK Profit/Loss for each.
If this method is already in place (or similar) then the current Min Max values into random are too high. Aim Assist needs to assist those needing the assistance, not allow their domination of the battefield.
Hopefully this gives you Devs something to talk about. Besides me being snarky about Draw Distance that is. 
* I normally prefer to disable all assists in any game. Just the way I am. |
Raven Tesio
Liandri Hel-Jumpers
Liandri Covenant
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
The problem is they've been thinking about this from a Statistic / Skill-based Perspective rather than a First Person Shooter one, that is where almost all of the damn problems come from as well.
This game was never made as a Competent Shooter First, before trying to shoe-horn in the EVE Skill System, which quite frankly even after several redrafts is still going about it in the wrong way just as it is in EVE for the most part; where despite balancing they do because Skills apply to the core base attributes instead of just the Augmentations there is a massive discrepancy between someone 'new' and someone who is a 'vet'
Still back to the Aim Assist itself, realistically this would be less of a requirement should the controls be solid to begin with.
Sure there needs to be some compensation for Latency, but the games that do Aim Assist better (such-as Frostbite, Source and Unreal Engine 3 Default System) you never notice them.
As they are really subtle 'snapping' mechanics that combat the lack of fine precision the controllers lack, or are designed to Smooth & Accelerate the Mouse Movement to combat the lack of target holding that the Mouse often suffers from.
With the PlayStation Move, god knows what happens that because it's just an inaccurate mess that shouldn't be supported.
Motion Controls have absolutely NO place in a First Person Shooter, sometimes like in Killzone 3 they are passable with heavy assists; but for the most part if I wanted to play Quick Draw Magraw or House of the Dead ... I'd be playing those, part of being a good game designer is knowing when to say "This feature is stupid and doesn't work with what we're trying to do, cut it"
Still the whole point is that the Aim Assist doesn't make it any 'easier' to be awesome, but rather is merely a means to address a shortfall with the Control Device that the player is using. As soon as Mathematic Equations on Hit Chance are thrown around for Aim Assist ... seriously YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!
Really CCP has to accept here that some point are not going to be able to aim to save their lives (literally in the case of an FPS) in-fact I have a number of friends who play Battlefield 3 that are frankly complete garbage when it comes to actually shooting AT people; but the game itself is fun for them because there is more than simply shooting at people to be useful in a fight.
Being a Medic and reviving 'downed' teammates or healing everyone, which frankly is just broken still as clients don't update body positions and physics is not done the same on each system (seriously share the damn Server Physics Seed using that for all calculation, it's not that damn hard!)
Being the Logistics guy, who provides ammo, covering fire, etc... I mean that is something that drives me crazy that really you don't have /covering fire/ here. In Battlefield 3, it is common for one of our guys when we need to extract and fall back to simply pepper a hallway with bullets to force people to take cover often causing the "suppression" effect that makes it a ***** to see what is going on. Regardless of if they get a kill or not those bullets were not wasted as they kept the enemy pinned long enough for us to GTFO.
Quite frankly they're trying to fix an issue of they have caused by relying on RPG Mechanics for how the Weaponry works.
They are looking and working on the wrong solution to a problem that should not be there period. |
KalOfTheRathi
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
652
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 02:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Raven Tesio wrote: -- snip, read his post. Really it is just ^ there -- While I agree with your assessments of the current system and you overall views regarding controls (man they suck, rocks) and the overall effectiveness of the various forms available let me disagree with you in relation to DUST.
First DUST is an MMO If One Stretches The Kitten out of the definition. This means it has some persistent worlds that those down in the DUST can connect with on a very limited basis. Nothing like an MMO world, nor anything at the level existing in EVE.
Second selling point, originally was the RPG (for me) as it was promoted as a MMO/RPG/FPS. But the RPG aspect is basically done incorrectly. During Beta the SP rewards were actually anti-incentivizing. As well as demoralizing. Large SP for the first several matches after reset, regardless of success. Then an ever diminishing reward while again ignoring the relative success of the player. The current Skill Tree is another take on a badly thought out solution to the RPG aspects of the game.
That leaves us with a generic Space Based FPS. Mass Effect was much better at the RPG/FPS than DUST and it was a number of years ago. The original art, that did not require cutting Draw Distance, was bland, grey or brown although did not actually limit game play nor frame rate.
But, who is the game actually marketed to, or in case of doubt, intended for. EVE players, obviously. Ties in with EVE just enough currently with potential rewards for later. Much, much later it would appear.
Additional markets are casual F2P PS3 owners. Some level of FPS crowd that feels like their are hard core, and may well be. But casual is the basis to F2P. If enough Whales come in to support the game it is a money maker. With the EVE crowd filling in as foundation for funding this should be a certified success. And might well be from a financial side.
However, the Aim Assist you want (almost said were aiming for, sorry) is more focused on the smallest group of players. Hard-core or at least serious FPS gamers. Those are the least lucrative customers one can have. Granted CoD and BF-Digit all sell huge numbers and they have massive DLC costs to maximize the total payout per player.
DUST will never be that. But it will constantly draw F2P players with an occasional whale and a steady stream of EVE players not to mention adding EVE players from DUST only players as they get into the lore and find friends to play EVE with. I have only found EVE players that I wouldn't run over in an intersection down here in the DUST. EVE players until then were the scum of the gaming community and except for my friends I still believe that.
So how to fix the Aim Assist to accomplish what needs to be done ... not to fix the controller, but to make the game fun and playable by a wider audience. I believe my solution would work well enough to accomplish that goal.
Another post for another time I might explain my existing controller software for any input device (already on linux) which attempts to solve the very problems You are concerned about now. The control systems are junk. They are incredibly cheap devices (the DS3 internal cable is the worst ever), cheaply made and expected to be replaced much too often.
Personally I don't believe that DUST requires that level of fix. First of CCP/Shanghai would be unable to use it (I am anti-sony until they give me linux back on my PS3) and to incorporate into UnReal might well be a daunting task. UnReal is not known in the industry as great code. Functional yes; Great, no.
So I propose we disagree.
The controls are junk and we can agree on that. My Xbox and PS3 controller solutions are a continual stream of attempts, disappointments, dead characters, crashed vehicles and an occasional screaming session related to the current crop of miserable excuses for programmers in the entire gaming industry existing as only a virus. Which I am not going to attempt to correct. Sisyphus had an easier task and I have no desire to best him. |
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