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I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 810	Posted - 2013.09.06 08:09:00 - [1] - Quote Background: -I have been using scanners for a long time, even when uprising first started -I have a proto minmatar scout alt -My main is a minmatar logi, and I incorporate scanners into most of my fittings, and use them every match. _____________________ Wall of text incoming Okay I know what you all are thinking, "how is something that's not a weapon considered OP?" Well, it's because I use them, and ever since I started using them I've been able to go 30/1, 38/2, 2500 wp, just from sneaky tactics, a lot of health, a good weapon, headshots, and specifically the scanner. Even with my shotgun scout I can easily get these kinds of numbers because of how useful the scanner is. When you're using a scanner, whether it be a basic one or a prototype, you can see: -The enemy's position on the plane (radar) -Which direction they're facing (radar) -How far away they are (radar) -A chevron on your HUD to indicate which direction they are in -If someone has been undetected (message) When you are scanned, you either see one of the following messages: -"You have been scanned" -"Scan prevented" The problem with this is that while the scanner is given a lot of information about the enemies, there is no way for a player to directly counter scanning. "Well what about profile dampeners? and scouts?" Yes, you can make it so that you won't become visible and tracked by other players, but that doesn't "counter" scanning. See, the only thing you're doing is PREVENTING the scan. There is no way for you to tell who scanned you or where they are for you to get back at them. Not only this, but a player who sees the message that their scan didn't pick up someone, knows the player (most likely a scout) has to be in the area that they scanned, giving them the advantage even though it should be the other way around. In the next post, I will refer to some solutions for this, but first let me get to why I believe some of them need a buff. ________________________ Currently, the main difference separating standard, advanced, and proto scanners is the profile level at which they can detect. This is not a good design for the scanner's advancement. Not many players actually lower their profile under the advanced scanner, so there is rally no reason to use any of the prototype scanners except for the quantum one (makes players last on radar longer) (Info on the scanner) The standard scanner has these stats: -Scan duration: 2 seconds (how long the scanner takes to preform a scan, and how long it scans for. The longer a scan, the more of a possibility it picks up a player that enters the scan range) -Scan range: 100 meters (how far out it scans within the scanning angle) -Scan angle: 60 degrees (how wide the scan is on the radar, larger ones are easier to scan a larger area, smaller ones are good for pinpointing specific areas) -Scan precision: 46 dB (if your profile is lower than this number, you won't be scanned. Higher, and you will be) -Detection: 5 seconds (how long scanned players appear on the map) -Recharge: 8 seconds estimated (how long after a scan that you have to wait before scanning again) The only difference between the standard and proto scanner is the scan precision. That's it. In order for the advanced and prototype scanners to be used instead, the basic variant needs to scale some of its stats. I don't want to suggest numbers to confuse people even more, but a good example would be to make the better ones have a slightly longer detection, and a faster recharge. Nanohives are like this, so why not scanners? ____________________ Okay last section. "No wp for scanners? BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY NEED!" Hear me out on this. If you read the first section, you would know that I am able to gain a lot more wp and kills from battles just from using a scanner. If they introduced even something as small as 5 wp per person that was killed while scanned, I'd be making 3000-4000 wp per match ALONE. Good logistics players like me are already making bank, but this is RIDICULOUS. I understand that most players don't use scanners because they only have one equipment slot, or because scanners don't give any wp, or because they waste a lot of ammo coughARcough and have to run a nanohive. But seriously, scanners already make enough extra wp with the easy kills you get. Go out and try it for yourself, or run with someone that uses them and flank the enemy. You WILL do well.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 810	Posted - 2013.09.06 08:10:00 - [2] - Quote Here are my ideas for some solutions to making scanners more interesting to play against. Not all of these would have to be implemented, but any of these changes would help. Signature blocker (equipment) -All friendly icons will not appear on the opponent's tacnet, or will have their signature lowered to a specific level (standard blocker will be lower profile than basic scanner, but a proto or advanced scanner could still detect objects inside of a standard one) -This includes players, vehicles, installations, equipment, and anything else with an icon -Large radius, maybe twice the size of a nanohive -Scanners that are not able to pick up signatures within the area of effect will tell the user that there is nothing there instead of saying the scan had some uncertainty ____________________ Players that use scanners should have their profiles raised while they are scanning, or just become visible on tacnet for a brief time -I remember hearing about this when uprising came out (maybe in the scanner description?), but I never actually tested to see if this was already in the game...and it doesn't seem like players turn around when I scan them... ____________________ Players that lower their profile significantly below the scanner's precision should be completely invisible to the scan, having the scanner act like it was able to scan all that it could. When this occurs, instead of saying "Scan prevented" it could say "Scan blocked" to let a player know that they were able to completely fool it.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 381	Posted - 2013.09.06 08:53:00 - [3] - Quote Interesting post. I have not used scanners, but I was thinking of giving them a try. I had no idea they actually showed that much information!
ALPHA DECRIPTER M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 417	Posted - 2013.09.06 09:35:00 - [4] - Quote I still want scanner points. It would only count if it's a squad member that kills them and as a recon scout I find it more beneficial to the team if I let them handle it most of the time. The purpose of giving WPs is for aiding your team and that's just what the scanner does. After giving my squad a heads up on infantry, vehicles, AND equipment and then taking it upon myself to destroy all the equipment as my squad surrounds and eliminates the enemy thanks to there element of surprise I end up with no WPs. This says, to me, I played no role in my squads/teams success when it couldn't be farther from the truth. Give WPs to scanners (including vehicles) and for destroying equipment. `Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 810	Posted - 2013.09.06 09:46:00 - [5] - Quote As long as you're okay with me making a cool 3-4k wp per match, I'm okay with wp for scanners. I want them, but I don't think that they are necessary with how beneficial scanners are.
Cosgar ParagonX 4789	Posted - 2013.09.06 09:50:00 - [6] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: As long as you're okay with me making a cool 3-4k wp per match, I'm okay with wp for scanners. I want them, but I don't think that they are necessary with how beneficial scanners are. If logistics are going to get nerfed to sidearm wielding pack mules with less EHP than a scout like I think CCP is planning to do based on all the forum whining, then we're going to need all the WP gaining methods in the world.
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps Dark Taboo 10	Posted - 2013.09.06 09:57:00 - [7] - Quote That would be a good argument.... If more people used them
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 810	Posted - 2013.09.06 09:59:00 - [8] - Quote Cosgar wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: As long as you're okay with me making a cool 3-4k wp per match, I'm okay with wp for scanners. I want them, but I don't think that they are necessary with how beneficial scanners are. If logistics are going to get nerfed to sidearm wielding pack mules with less EHP than a scout like I think CCP is planning to do based on all the forum whining, then we're going to need all the WP gaining methods in the world. If they do that, they better give me some more repair tool icons, uncap my repair tool, give me friendly vision back, 10hp/s armor repair modules, and respec my sp in light weapons. I don't mind being something like a triage in EVE, but give me the ability to actually be a logi first with super armor repair. Either that, or give me a heavy with a ton of low modules and an equipment slot.
Cosgar ParagonX 4789	Posted - 2013.09.06 10:11:00 - [9] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Cosgar wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: As long as you're okay with me making a cool 3-4k wp per match, I'm okay with wp for scanners. I want them, but I don't think that they are necessary with how beneficial scanners are. If logistics are going to get nerfed to sidearm wielding pack mules with less EHP than a scout like I think CCP is planning to do based on all the forum whining, then we're going to need all the WP gaining methods in the world. If they do that, they better give me some more repair tool icons, uncap my repair tool, give me friendly vision back, 10hp/s armor repair modules, and respec my sp in light weapons. I don't mind being something like a triage in EVE, but give me the ability to actually be a logi first with super armor repair. Either that, or give me a heavy with a ton of low modules and an equipment slot. Honestly, I don't know what they're going to do yet. The ultimate dud is racial equipment bonuses or some BS like that. I'd rather see the logi suit treated for what it is- a medium suit with less base stats and no sidearm in exchange for more module slots and equipment. But anyway, back to the scanner. I wouldn't mind if they just gave out kill assists points for any targets killed while highlighted.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 570	Posted - 2013.09.06 10:43:00 - [10] - Quote I've tried scanners in uprising, but with the squad vision activated, they were just a surplus. Now, as a logi i think that the scanner is my powerful weapon, but i guess that they will nerf it sooner or later. But i would give wp for kills on scanned enemies.

pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 812	Posted - 2013.09.06 11:27:00 - [11] - Quote Lol at op for thinking scanners are op because they allow him to use tactics .... gasp in a hears the kicker ......TACTICAL shooter. If those folks he was facing had scanners he wouldent have got the drop on them . Plainly scanners dont need a nerf but blueberry and redberry AI as a whole nees a ******* buff.....
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 813	Posted - 2013.09.06 12:05:00 - [12] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Lol at op for thinking scanners are op because they allow him to use tactics .... gasp in a hears the kicker ......TACTICAL shooter. If those folks he was facing had scanners he wouldent have got the drop on them . Plainly scanners dont need a nerf but blueberry and redberry AI as a whole nees a ******* buff..... I listed reasons for players not using scanners. Any other class would rather use something that either gives them wp or helps themselves/their team out more. Logistics somewhat have a hard time because they would have to give up one of their wp earning methods just for something that helps locate people. Besides, I have 20 million sp right now...I should be playing with the best players with the new matchmaking system, yet I'm able to dominate almost anyone I face simply because I use scanners and they don't? Not to mention Scouts don't even have an advantage over my scanner with profile dampeners, which most are doing now to hide from them. Even if they don't show up, I know where they are, and I know what I'm up against that could have outclassed my scanner.
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 816	Posted - 2013.09.06 12:33:00 - [13] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Lol at op for thinking scanners are op because they allow him to use tactics .... gasp in a hears the kicker ......TACTICAL shooter. If those folks he was facing had scanners he wouldent have got the drop on them . Plainly scanners dont need a nerf but blueberry and redberry AI as a whole nees a ******* buff..... I listed reasons for players not using scanners. Any other class would rather use something that either gives them wp or helps themselves/their team out more. Logistics somewhat have a hard time because they would have to give up one of their wp earning methods just for something that helps locate people. Besides, I have 20 million sp right now...I should be playing with the best players with the new matchmaking system, yet I'm able to dominate almost anyone I face simply because I use scanners and they don't? Not to mention Scouts don't even have an advantage over my scanner with profile dampeners, which most are doing now to hide from them. Even if they don't show up, I know where they are, and I know what I'm up against that could have outclassed my scanner. Dude them using scanners and or profile dampners are provided counters to your tactics not your fault if folks ignore that.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3491	Posted - 2013.09.06 12:39:00 - [14] - Quote As one possible point, Shayz, the WP amount could be as low as 1 or 2 WP per "scan assist". In that way, you aren't banking WP like crazy just for the scanner, but you're still being rewarded more directly for using it.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 817	Posted - 2013.09.06 21:02:00 - [15] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: As one possible point, Shayz, the WP amount could be as low as 1 or 2 WP per "scan assist". In that way, you aren't banking WP like crazy just for the scanner, but you're still being rewarded more directly for using it. I was thinking about this, but if it was really that low then you could barely make any wp using it. Say you're in an ambush and you manage to scan every single player, and let your team kill them. That's only 50-80 wp you would earn at 1 wp per scan kill assist. You'd be better off just finding a player to kill lol. A shirmish could get you a max total of 150 wp (maybe 175ish if you scanned revived players), if it was at 2 wp per scan kill assist that would be 300 wp. And trust me, this would be hard to do, even if you just scanned the area a billion times. So obviously we would want to raise the rewards a bit so that it doesn't seem like a waste of an equipment slot. At 5 wp per kill assist you might be able to get about 500 wp from 100 assists. If they made it 10 or 15, it might be a problem. This is why I'm addressing the issue now instead of when 1.5 comes around. But yeah, I get what you're saying. Having any reward vs no reward would be better.
Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 524	Posted - 2013.09.06 21:04:00 - [16] - Quote Interesting how this was supposed to be a scout thing, but ended up being a Logi thing.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 817	Posted - 2013.09.06 21:10:00 - [17] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Interesting how this was supposed to be a scout thing, but ended up being a Logi thing. One of the scouts need to have at least two equipment slots, and a bit more pg/cpu. OR Just give scouts their type II back :P I still use it on my scout alt, but as a logi I can use equipment to my advantage.
Torneido Achura The Suicide Kingz 28	Posted - 2013.09.06 21:20:00 - [18] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Lol at op for thinking scanners are op because they allow him to use tactics .... gasp in a hears the kicker ......TACTICAL shooter. If those folks he was facing had scanners he wouldent have got the drop on them . Plainly scanners dont need a nerf but blueberry and redberry AI as a whole nees a ******* buff..... I listed reasons for players not using scanners. Any other class would rather use something that either gives them wp or helps themselves/their team out more. Logistics somewhat have a hard time because they would have to give up one of their wp earning methods just for something that helps locate people. Besides, I have 20 million sp right now...I should be playing with the best players with the new matchmaking system, yet I'm able to dominate almost anyone I face simply because I use scanners and they don't? Not to mention Scouts don't even have an advantage over my scanner with profile dampeners, which most are doing now to hide from them. Even if they don't show up, I know where they are, and I know what I'm up against that could have outclassed my scanner. Scouts need a buff, everybody knows that Also, no one is using active scanners right now, as soon as more people start using them say good bye to your op.. And, you named some things that are actually tactics, not the equipment per se is doing all the work
Echoist Fenrir's Wolves DARKSTAR ARMY 75	Posted - 2013.09.07 00:17:00 - [19] - Quote Torneido Achura wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Lol at op for thinking scanners are op because they allow him to use tactics .... gasp in a hears the kicker ......TACTICAL shooter. If those folks he was facing had scanners he wouldent have got the drop on them . Plainly scanners dont need a nerf but blueberry and redberry AI as a whole nees a ******* buff..... I listed reasons for players not using scanners. Any other class would rather use something that either gives them wp or helps themselves/their team out more. Logistics somewhat have a hard time because they would have to give up one of their wp earning methods just for something that helps locate people. Besides, I have 20 million sp right now...I should be playing with the best players with the new matchmaking system, yet I'm able to dominate almost anyone I face simply because I use scanners and they don't? Not to mention Scouts don't even have an advantage over my scanner with profile dampeners, which most are doing now to hide from them. Even if they don't show up, I know where they are, and I know what I'm up against that could have outclassed my scanner. Scouts need a buff, everybody knows that Also, no one is using active scanners right now, as soon as more people start using them say good bye to your op.. And, you named some things that are actually tactics, not the equipment per se is doing all the work Actually I use scanners all the time now on all my suits simply because it suits the weapon i use and allows for a more tactical approach. Also there are quite a good amount of people now that are using the scanners as well. I personally don't really care if they give me wp for scanning an area because i end up getting those wps by killing the other team or my squad ends up killing them.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 241	Posted - 2013.09.07 00:42:00 - [20] - Quote Scout here. +1 for OP. (+5 if I could.) Scanner use is increasing rapidly, especially in organized squads. The moment I see one trigger, I know I need to find somewhere else to be or else introduce a new element (like an RE in an unexpected place) quick, before someone takes advantage of the fact that I am now functionally an underpowered assault suit. Perhaps in time I'll get better about doing that quickly. Particularly, it would be better if scanner users got no return on a failed scan. Being able to track even a scout loaded down with dampeners to the degree of being able to send squadmates in the right general direction is a bit of a problem.

Keri Starlight Psygod9 203	Posted - 2013.09.07 01:11:00 - [21] - Quote Interesting stuff, but there is only one point I totally disagree: The active scanner user should NOT become visible while scanning. That's a huge nerf! I really like the scan-disturber idea. I believe it should have a long cooldown but a very long durability as well. This way you don't need to activate it constantly (bugging and stressing) but you have occasionally some short periods of "scan susceptibility", which is fair. And I would make an "area" model and an "individual" model. What do you think about it? Example (numbers are here just to give an idea, do not focus too much on them) -Area disturber -Activate -20 seconds of disturbing signal -20 seconds of cooldown (after depleting) (imagine this used to hide an allied HAV to sneak up and ambush the enemy team... lol) -Individual disturber -Activate -30 seconds of personal scan invisibility -15 seconds of cooldown.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 819	Posted - 2013.09.07 01:31:00 - [22] - Quote Keri Starlight wrote: I really like the scan-disturber idea. I believe it should have a long cooldown but a very long durability as well. This way you don't need to activate it constantly (bugging and stressing) but you have occasionally some short periods of "scan susceptibility", which is fair. And I would make an "area" model and an "individual" model. What do you think about it? I was actually thinking more along the lines of a nanohive type equipment that can be deployed and it makes an area invisible to scanning. Say you want to be a sniper, throw down one of those and you won't appear as a red dot.Want to be a sneaky scout defending or attacking an objective? No one will even know you're there. Want to hide an uplink in a hard to reach spot? The enemy team won't know where you guys keep spawning from.
Keri Starlight Psygod9 203	Posted - 2013.09.07 01:37:00 - [23] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Keri Starlight wrote: I really like the scan-disturber idea. I believe it should have a long cooldown but a very long durability as well. This way you don't need to activate it constantly (bugging and stressing) but you have occasionally some short periods of "scan susceptibility", which is fair. And I would make an "area" model and an "individual" model. What do you think about it? I was actually thinking more along the lines of a nanohive type equipment that can be deployed and it makes an area invisible to scanning. Say you want to be a sniper, throw down one of those and you won't appear as a red dot.Want to be a sneaky scout defending or attacking an objective? No one will even know you're there. Want to hide an uplink in a hard to reach spot? The enemy team won't know where you guys keep spawning from. Oh sorry! I like this as well!
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1718	Posted - 2013.09.07 01:40:00 - [24] - Quote Wait! The scanner tells you if it didn't detect something? That's basically telling you it detected a scout! Dafuq! Get rid of that
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 819	Posted - 2013.09.07 02:52:00 - [25] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Wait! The scanner tells you if it didn't detect something? That's basically telling you it detected a scout! Dafuq! Get rid of that The DEVs like it for hunting snipers, or at least that's why they think the message is a good idea. For instance, if you use a flux scanner, you can pinpoint where they are and track them down. but yeah, knowing you just detected a scout is bad, but that's only because most players don't use dampeners...because most players don't use scanners. Sigh. I wish the passive dampening skill was actually useful for going against scanners. As a logi I'm lucky that I can max mine out to stop basic scanners, but Assaults and Heavies HAVE to use dampeners. I could use one basic dampener to stop basic scanners, but an assault needs 2 basic or one advanced. I wish I could use dampeners to prevent against advanced scanners, but I need my low slots if I don't want to die in two seconds. So maybe dampeners just need a buff.
Greasepalms Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 226	Posted - 2013.09.07 03:52:00 - [26] - Quote I think they should get rid of the scan's fidelity info. If someone's profile is low enough to remain undetected, they should be rewarded for investing in such attributes (or wearing a scout suit). Keep the "Scan Prevented" message but drop the "Some margin of error". my 0.02 ISK.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 249	Posted - 2013.09.07 11:55:00 - [27] - Quote When the "optimal scan precision" is what it is today there could be an absolute scan precision below which the scanner doesn't pick up anything. Between absolute and optimal scan precision we could keep the "Some margin of error" message. This has mainly the purpose that if the target is 1 or 2 db below scan precision you still get some information on the existence of the target. This would generally be the case for an Assault user that runs in a profile dampener mod. A Scout with additional profile dampeners should definitely not cause the margin of error-message even on advanced scanners.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1471	Posted - 2013.09.07 14:57:00 - [28] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: As long as you're okay with me making a cool 3-4k wp per match, I'm okay with wp for scanners. I want them, but I don't think that they are necessary with how beneficial scanners are. I'm fine with everyone making more SP a match. Great post. I've been using scanner plus SCR combo on my assault as my go to fit this entire build and while I don't think that they are OP, they are one of the more powerful tools out there. I do think that there needs to be a way to prevent the "some margin of error" message. I like your idea of just being completely invisible if you beat the scan by a good amount. I really want to see more e-war, too. We need more ways to detect hostiles ( like a deployable motion detector) and more ways to jam sensors.
IR Scifi Beyond Gravity.OTF 58	Posted - 2013.09.07 16:47:00 - [29] - Quote Greasepalms wrote: I think they should get rid of the scan's fidelity info. If someone's profile is low enough to remain undetected, they should be rewarded for investing in such attributes (or wearing a scout suit). Keep the "Scan Prevented" message but drop the "Some margin of error". my 0.02 ISK. Agreed with one modification. If there are too many signals (aka a kitten-ton of reds or their equip) than you should get the margin of error. So it's not quite a signal jam but more that there are too many signals to get an accurate reading of how many there are. Your scanner would basically go "Hell I dunno, more than ten guys...maybe?".
J Lav OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 205	Posted - 2013.09.07 18:16:00 - [30] - Quote Interesting observations. I think your estimations of how effective the scanner have been for you are highly subjective, and would not be the case against organized squads. Also people are more likely to be bringing scanners in the near future to counter your "easy kills". I would be happy to see a scanner give +5 WP per player killed that you scanned. I would also like to see people have the option of running a deployable jammer that would disrupt scanners. This is partly because even if all 50 enemy players were to be scanned by you, it would only amount to 250 WP. I like the idea of better scanners providing more information. That is a material gain.



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