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Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
6
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Posted - 2013.09.04 12:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
The purpose of this thread is to hopefully present arguments for or against various nerfs or buffs of either vehicles (focus on tanks) or AV. I'm hoping to bring information forward to people who are not die hard tankers or AV users (such as myself).
Let me start with my own opinion and then present a few questions to get things started...
I have advanced AV grenades basic explosives and nothing else AV wise. The most I've specced into vehicles is probably about 500k into dropships. That being said I am sympathetic to both sides but I admit I am more sympathetic to the infantry.
When I see a tank I realize that it has the potential to control the rest of a match if gone unchallenged. I make it my mission to try and destroy it even if it means taking 5+ deaths. My militia SL and packed AV grenades are simply not enough to hurt a tank. Unless I have the rest of my squad to back me up (none of which have any more firepower than I do), then the tank mows down my team for the whole match.
It is for this reason that I think that AV needs to be strong. If one person can rule a match with a tank then they deserve all of the attention they get in doing so. The risk involved with calling in a killing machine with 6000+ hp must be high otherwise this game could turn into Tanks 514.
I accept that I don't know enough about tanks/vehicles to claim either side needs to be changed from it's current state so please participate in posting if you have any expertise on either side.
Some particular questions to get people thinking could be...
1. Is it expected to lose/destroy a tank in a given match or is it simply intended to be matched by other tanks?
2. Are tank users counting on being able to use tanks every game for the entire game since their SP are primarily distributed into tanks?
3. Is there something to say about the amount of SP/ISK required to run tanks vs. AV?
4. Before 1.4 were things balanced?
Just some ideas. Please feel free to inform but keep it constructive please. Thanks. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:Why did you make this thread?
Tanks and AV are getting a complete rework from the ground up. The way tanks are in the game now will not be the way tanks are in the game for 1.5.
How about waiting until they release more information before making yet *another* "Tanks are broken AV is broken fix it plz" thread.
Thanks for the constructive input.
I explained why I made this thread: To inform those who are not dedicated Tank/AV users. I never asked CCP to fix anything or even complained so I don't understand why you think this is that sort of thread. I even stated that I did not know enough to claim one is OP/broken.
I understand things are going to change and I hope it balances things to the satisfaction of those affected. I don't see why knowing changes are coming would discourage the community from trying to understand what the fuss is about with vehicles if they don't use them personally.
If you have something to say about the subject then I'd love to hear it but otherwise I'd appreciate it if we kept this thread as purely informative as possible. So far I've already got some good insight and I'd like to keep it coming. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
When I see a tank I realize that it has the potential to control the rest of a match if gone unchallenged. I make it my mission to try and destroy it even if it means taking 5+ deaths. My militia SL and packed AV grenades are simply not enough to hurt a tank. Unless I have the rest of my squad to back me up (none of which have any more firepower than I do), then the tank mows down my team for the whole match.
LOL no You're admitting to bringing weak AV to the table. Why should your MLT swarm launcher and ADV AV grenades be any more powerful because out of at least 4 people, you bring weak AV to the table, and I have my Gunnlogi? Why should I get nerfed for your decision to not have much AV? This is what pisses me off about the community, and CCP's tendencies to listen to a specific group. I've gone 41-1 in a Gunnlogi getting spider tanked. The other team literally did not have better than MLT / STD AV. We're talking about 8 or so guys launching those weak swarms at me because not a single other person on their team had anything better than that. Now, they were launching explosive weaponry at a shield tank. They obviously won't have the explosive damage bonus on that. I had an armor tank behind me with a shield transporter constantly boosting my shield too. As such, the enemy team had to blow up that tank first before they could destroy me. That being said, why should your admittedly weak AV get buffed at all? In that case, everything CCP put into the game was working as intended. Explosive weaponry was shrugged off, and I was getting remote reps. Why should I in effect take another nerf?
Please read my first post in it's entirety. Or my second post. Where I address the same concern. I am not calling for nerfs or buffs.
I'm also not complaining that I cannot kill a tank with MLT equipment. I understand that if I expect to SOLO a tank, I'd need proto gear. I was really hoping to avoid people like you with the title of my thread. Read my posts before you jump all over me with questions that imply I'm saying things that I'm not saying. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
ABadMutha13 wrote:I use a tank every match, I think that question was asked. I skilled almost completely into vehicles and so I consider that my role on the battlefield. Quite frankly its not all doom and gloom when you get around 8-9 million in skills. I never use the expensive tanks on pub matches.
(I have a scout suit so if needed I scurry around the battlefield avoiding fire and hacking.)
I will go along with the fact that SOME matches they have no AV and I stomp around feeling invincible. Other matches I see advanced A/V and I am very timid making quick runs, waiting for all my cool downs.
A good tanker knows his exits and his angles, he uses them to maximize his lifespan. What I do not like is CCP using huge towers where infantry can sit and get 360 degree of the entire battlefield, but that has nothing to do with balancing that is a simply flaw in the map building.
Happy Hunting!
I'm glad to see that even tankers feel that they need to change play styles if the situation calls for it. I try running scout too sometimes when it makes sense. I think what's hard for me to grasp is the mindset of a player who is specialized into vehicles but then thinks that just because their tank is big it means it's appropriate for every situation. That was more or less what I'm getting at with some of the questions. I'm not criticizing anyone, I just have a lot more freedom with altering my roll on foot than someone who uses a tank I think. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:[
Also that game 8+ ppl with milita AV that was militaia/basic, if anything like adv/proto comes on the field its ****** i would love to scale it up but we have no proto tanks
I think if you apply this same logic to infantry it sounds ridiculous. Even 2 players with militia gear coming around a corner can kill a proto if they gang up on them. If a fraction of the team decides to try to kill a player in a tank then the person in the tank should probably not be invincible regardless what they're running. This seems to be what's happening more or less which is why I'm not calling for action of any kind of CCP's part. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:It's 70,000isk suits vs 500,000 ISK tanks.
Minimum to kill with vs minimum to survive with...
If the min survival tank cost was about 200,000 it would be acceptable cost ratios...
I'm going to have to disagree. That's barely more than a prototype suit or two poorly fit proto suits. I don't really know much about driving a tank but I've seen scoreboards and if someone can't kill it's ISK worth of suits with a tank then they're probably doing it wrong. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:ABadMutha13 wrote:I use a tank every match, I think that question was asked. I skilled almost completely into vehicles and so I consider that my role on the battlefield. Quite frankly its not all doom and gloom when you get around 8-9 million in skills. I never use the expensive tanks on pub matches.
(I have a scout suit so if needed I scurry around the battlefield avoiding fire and hacking.)
I will go along with the fact that SOME matches they have no AV and I stomp around feeling invincible. Other matches I see advanced A/V and I am very timid making quick runs, waiting for all my cool downs.
A good tanker knows his exits and his angles, he uses them to maximize his lifespan. What I do not like is CCP using huge towers where infantry can sit and get 360 degree of the entire battlefield, but that has nothing to do with balancing that is a simply flaw in the map building.
Happy Hunting! I'm glad to see that even tankers feel that they need to change play styles if the situation calls for it. I try running scout too sometimes when it makes sense. I think what's hard for me to grasp is the mindset of a player who is specialized into vehicles but then thinks that just because their tank is big it means it's appropriate for every situation. That was more or less what I'm getting at with some of the questions. I'm not criticizing anyone, I just have a lot more freedom with altering my roll on foot than someone who uses a tank I think. Indeed, its not that therw aren't options its just some are much more powerful overall than othrs. For examp, e the blaster turret has a high dps, high accuracy, does plenty of damage to tanks as well as infantry, theres no need to use the other 2!! Turrets need more defined roles, anti infantry, anti tank, or anti air, at the base layer, one turret cant do it all!!
That sounds interesting actually because I've heard someone in my corp mention something like that. I've always just seen either sniping tanks or blasters. It would be cool to see more variation so that it wasn't the same experience every game.
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:ABadMutha13 wrote:I use a tank every match, I think that question was asked. I skilled almost completely into vehicles and so I consider that my role on the battlefield. Quite frankly its not all doom and gloom when you get around 8-9 million in skills. I never use the expensive tanks on pub matches.
(I have a scout suit so if needed I scurry around the battlefield avoiding fire and hacking.)
I will go along with the fact that SOME matches they have no AV and I stomp around feeling invincible. Other matches I see advanced A/V and I am very timid making quick runs, waiting for all my cool downs.
A good tanker knows his exits and his angles, he uses them to maximize his lifespan. What I do not like is CCP using huge towers where infantry can sit and get 360 degree of the entire battlefield, but that has nothing to do with balancing that is a simply flaw in the map building.
Happy Hunting! I'm glad to see that even tankers feel that they need to change play styles if the situation calls for it. I try running scout too sometimes when it makes sense. I think what's hard for me to grasp is the mindset of a player who is specialized into vehicles but then thinks that just because their tank is big it means it's appropriate for every situation. That was more or less what I'm getting at with some of the questions. I'm not criticizing anyone, I just have a lot more freedom with altering my roll on foot than someone who uses a tank I think. Indeed, its not that therw aren't options its just some are much more powerful overall than othrs. For examp, e the blaster turret has a high dps, high accuracy, does plenty of damage to tanks as well as infantry, theres no need to use the other 2!! Turrets need more defined roles, anti infantry, anti tank, or anti air, at the base layer, one turret cant do it all!! That sounds interesting actually because I've heard someone in my corp mention something like that. I've always just seen either sniping tanks or blasters. It would be cool to see more variation so that it wasn't the same experience every game. It isn't our fault. We have 3 turrets, and 1 sucks, so what are we supposed to do? It isn't like we got 14 guns to use.......
I apologize, I probably should've been more clear. I mean that it would be cool to see CCP come out with different turrets that allowed for more variation in tank strategies. I don't blame the tankers for using the turrets the way they currently are. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:It's 70,000isk suits vs 500,000 ISK tanks.
Minimum to kill with vs minimum to survive with...
If the min survival tank cost was about 200,000 it would be acceptable cost ratios... I'm going to have to disagree. That's barely more than a prototype suit or two poorly fit proto suits. I don't really know much about driving a tank but I've seen scoreboards and if someone can't kill it's ISK worth of suits with a tank then they're probably doing it wrong. The people who can't get killed has no AV or very low level AV going after him. PROTO swarm or any kind of FG above STD will make HAV's, and vehicles in general disappear.
I would hope that proto AV will take out vehicles. Especially the swarm launchers considering that's literally all they can do. If those are on the field then tankers should play more cautiously otherwise accept the loss of ISK. Tanks aren't always appropriate. Just as I wouldn't run-and-gun if a tank is mowing down my team. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
At least i dont have to make stuff up to try and prove a point but in your case you make it up and fail with the point anyways
If a soma was that good then madrugars wouldnt be used and all we would see is somas but suprisingly i dont see somas in PC matches it always maddys
Could you tell me why that is the case? No you cant because you dont know what you are talking about
Where did he say somas were better?
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
The Superpowers
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Stop throwing insults at each other like 2 year olds, its degrading and only serves to diminish your intelligence!! Sometimes tanks can be op, sometimes they can be up, end of that discussion!!
How do you think tanks can be made fair for enemy infantry, and dont mean nerf this mcnuggets out of everything!! How can a tank be a tank without steam rolling the opposite side?
The only time a basic tank is OP is when ther is next to no AV on the enemy team which is ther fault and not mine When its UP is when anything over adv pops up because we do not have adv/proto mods/hulls Also swarms/av nades are the biggest crutches in the game and require no aim while still have massive faults with the weapon, invisible missiles/locking through cover/able to look up not lose lock so you can fire missiles when not looking at the target/tracking or the target is borked since the missiles track where the target used to be and not where it is/homing nades FG is pretty balanced as it is, requires some aim, more than the swarms and AV will ever need which is 0 Plasma cannon did get a buff in proj speed in 1.4 i have seen them about more and they do hit harder when they hit, requires the most aim so rarely used AV mines are never used, espc when homing AV nades deal more damage and never miss so why bother swapping to mines Give use proto hull/mods to compete with proto AV and we have a level playing field Pub matches should never be used to balance a weapon, its random, teams are random, forget about it Balance in PC where it counts, basic vehicles vs proto AV makes PC a right ******* annoyance
You must be joking calling swarms and AVs the biggest crutches in Dust.
Swarm launchers are primary weapons. They cannot attack infantry and they are completely worthless for anything aside from destroying vehicles. Why would CCP make them also difficult to aim and operate doing the only thing they're supposed to do? Aside from a SMG or scrambler pistol the player is completely defenseless to the enemies while they try to move into view of the tank. This is dangerous enough and almost suicidal so yeah they should be able to shoot/lock with some wiggle room around corners.
AV grenades are also worthless against infantry and can't be thrown very far. If someone drives a tank through infantry and doesn't expect to be challenged by something then they're just an idiot. I sense that tank users expect to be invincible and chase infantry down and then get annoyed when they toss AV grenades at them. Play smarter if you're being killed by AV grenades.
Just imagine how vulnerable the SL/AV grenade users are while tankers sit cozy in a metal box with 5-10k hp. The ones chasing tanks with AV grenades deserve medals. |
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