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The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 880	Posted - 2013.08.31 22:24:00 - [1] - Quote Jimbo1337 wrote: So to all the people posting on here: What did you do with your skill points when they gave the optional respecs. Screw up again? I mean seriously... Nobody knew that the laser rifle was going to be utter garbage after chrome so I can understand why people skilled into it and found out that they desperately needed a respec. What did you guys do? Skill into something like the laser rifle AGAIN only to find out that it still sucked? The LR is great it just needs a little tweaking to make it perfect. If I was decent shot then it would be OP.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 880	Posted - 2013.08.31 22:48:00 - [2] - Quote I agree with sp refunds for missing vehicles and suits. Everything else in my eyes is not productive. I don't know how people spent their sp but it shouldn't be dumped into a single skill before trying it out to get a feel for it. I won't put more than level 3 into anything until I have tried it for a while. Militia and basic gear sucks but it does provide some feel for the higher classes. I believe that providing repsecs because of balancing changes is a bad idea. The people who dumped SP into anything without testing it will probably do the same thing if they get refunded and it will cause a whole new cycle of respec threads. Part of playing a CCP game is learning to live with change, I know it sucks but that is how it is. The gear changes will continue for at least a year because we are very good at using things in a way not intended. We break things and flock to "win" buttons and because of this it is difficult to predict how an item will be used and how powerful it will be. I think that a respec makes this more difficult than it already is. We need mercs testing things on all levels of gear and refunded SP allows people to max a skill in 10 seconds instead of the amount of time intended. We need consistent data, yes gear changes alters data and respecs exacerbates the problem. It is hard to prove a negative so giving a reason not to refund is just as difficult as thinking up an original reason for a refund that doesn't sound like whining. If I am for it I am a whiner and if I am against it I am a fan-boy; either way I am stupid. The skills that a merc has SP in is a skill that person want and to me that means that they will put points back in the same set of skills. If these skills are skills that are wanted then why refund them? If the skill is broken then it goes to reason that they will be fixed and when fixed will we need another respec to get back into the skill we want if we were refunded SP? How does it help the game? Refunding points will only make us happy of a few days and then the real problems will surface again. We need content not respecs. We need PVE, suits, vehicles, more SP sinks, more modules and more ways to fight on different maps. When we have these things a refund will not be needed because we will be having fun. We need fun not refunded SP.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 880	Posted - 2013.08.31 23:07:00 - [3] - Quote 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: Reasons why we want respecs : To try a new role To make the right decision To spec into the next FoTM Anti-respect peoples reasons to not give us respecs : We will spec into the FoTM There will probably be a rise in people using protogear They already have the right build they want They already got a respec in uprising(so they don't want to be stomped by new protogear) The main thing I hear from anti-respec people is that "there shouldn't be a respec because people are just gonna spec into the next FoTM". I say let them have their respecs, if they spec into the FoTM and it get nerfed/balanced then they are SOL , THEN there shouldn't be any more respecs. The only thing anti-respec people hear when someone mentions a respec is "I wanna spec into the FoTM". Try looking at this respec war from a different point of view then you will see the logic behind both sides Trying a new role. Most gear has a militia version and if not then level one is usually affordable. To make the right decision. Sorry, we all make mistakes To spec into FoTM. Bad all the way around. Will spec into FoTM. We can't prove this but it does allow them to spec out of FoTM which is bad also. They have the right build they want. I don't know how to answer this. They already had a respec. Yes they did but we are missing "core" items that are needed. I see more negatives than positives and I agree with no refunds until ALL racial items are in game and then only partial respecs for the skills in the same tree as the missing stuff. I am willing to convert but I need better reasons.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 880	Posted - 2013.08.31 23:16:00 - [4] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Jimbo1337 wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Jimbo1337 wrote: I am sorry that you skilled a ton of SP into the flaylock and now want that SP back. Well I would love to get the hundreds of deaths due to the flaylock back but that doesn't seem likely does it. So I laugh at all of you who skilled into that weapon and I am currently laughing at all of you who then transferred over to the MD. THAT is why people don't deserve a respec. You do realize that you could just PLAY THE GAME and gain more SP right? Do you honestly think this is the reason? I haven't spent a single point on flaylocks (or Cadari suits and ARs for that matter) and I'm still mostly in favor of this. Then maybe you should actually take the time to skill into the correct things once in a while. I mean...how hard is it to skill into what you have been dying to get for 1 week, 2 weeks, sometimes a month? I mean come on! Seriously people. If you made a mistake and skilled into something that is useless...who is to blame? Yourself! Take responsibility for your own actions and act like adults instead of a child. Its a game that is supposed to be played for a LONG TIME. Take the time to play the game and request something more meaningful. Stop with the stupid gun nerfs and whining and actually have some fun. Request new game modes. Request new maps. This is truly what the game is lacking instead of another stupid respec. For the record, I personally do not want a respec. I don't need one, I have my skills where I want them considering the content currently available. The reason I am sort of in favor of a respec is because there have been a lot of vehicles changes being made and those guys skilled into one thing and CCP changed it to something else. Think of it like CCP took their skill points away and instead of giving them back as unallocated they moved them somewhere else. I see it more like that vehicles were designed to work a certain way and that isn't how we use them. The feel awkward and lumbering because we are used to lone wolf type vehicles instead of working as a team and using reps and transports. They are working as designed but we don't use them that way so they feel weak.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 880	Posted - 2013.08.31 23:17:00 - [5] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: You know what CCP ... just do it ... the players that are here now are the core of this game, the ones that have stuck with it through thick and thin and will stick with it and promote it and make it good. What you're doing over the next couple of months you should be able to bring some good balance and roles and hopefully some big improvements to hit detection / lag problems. So just give an optional respec, hell give an optional asset liquidation aswell (unless you think you can float the market before christmas) ... and make it VERY clear there will never be another one, so if you want the Minmatar Heavy either save your points till it's released (preferably giving a clue how soon) and make do with basic gear till then or skill the Amarr and put up with it till you have the sp to cross train the Minmatar aswell. I don't really want one, but if you're going to do it I may aswell drop my AV skills and you may aswell cancel 1.5 and start working on something else, cos the way this lot are going on there won't be any vehicles in the game no matter how good you make them. Signed for the 'Could care less anymore whether you give a respec or not so long as it shuts this lot up' petition. It won't that is the problem. We are not always correct.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 881	Posted - 2013.08.31 23:28:00 - [6] - Quote 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Trying a new role. Most gear has a militia version and if not then level one is usually affordable. To make the right decision. Sorry, we all make mistakes To spec into FoTM. Bad all the way around. Will spec into FoTM. We can't prove this but it does allow them to spec out of FoTM which is bad also. They have the right build they want. I don't know how to answer this. They already had a respec. Yes they did but we are missing "core" items that are needed. I see more negatives than positives and I agree with no refunds until ALL racial items are in game and then only partial respecs for the skills in the same tree as the missing stuff. I am willing to convert but I need better reasons. They have the right build as in they like the way they spent their SP and don't want a respec to happen. I'm not going to try to force you to change your mind but how long do you think it will take until ALL of the racial variants are out?1 or 2 years? By that time we wont even need a respec or a lot of people will probably have left Dust but who knows. I think we may have a fire lit under them and I want to say December for a full line up. I am not being an a#$ but how long of a notice do we need for mercs to prepare. If they were to come out in Dec. would a months notice give us enough time to save for the skill? If a five week notice was given would we need a refund?
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 881	Posted - 2013.08.31 23:36:00 - [7] - Quote 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Yup, and even if it changes drastically, it's still going to be the perfect build. That's because I picked the playstyle I wanted, rather than the stats I wanted. If people don't want tanks anymore, despite the fact that they're still going to be tanks, then it's clear they didn't pick the playstyle they wanted. It's their own fault, they shouldn't be rewarded for it. That's exactly one of the points I'm making , you have the build you want and therefore you are saying "No respecs because I have the build I wanted" that's what the majority of anti-respec people say its not like we are all the same , people make different choices and you made a choice that you were happy with. As for vehicles you can utilize those way more than other things if you goof up on them. Respecs for unhappy allocation isn't a good reason for refunds like being happy with my placement is not a reason against. I love my builds but I made mistakes and I skilled into things I don't like or are unhappy with performance. There is nothing I can do about it and I moved on, I want ewar so I speced into active scanners, they feel pointless. I will use them again and they will be tweaked so my SP wasn't wasted. That doesn't mean I am happy about it but I suck it up and keep going. The main point I try to keep making is try before blindly dumping into high level skills. It does help.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 881	Posted - 2013.08.31 23:38:00 - [8] - Quote 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: I think we may have a fire lit under them and I want to say December for a full line up. I am not being an a#$ but how long of a notice do we need for mercs to prepare. If they were to come out in Dec. would a months notice give us enough time to save for the skill? If a five week notice was given would we need a refund? But that's the problem we don't know when or even a timeframe of when they will come out and even if they did come out there shouldn't be a full respec for every time something new comes out. This is why dust needs a Test server like Eve. We are the test server, balancing the game is fun and creates conflict. Until we have higher numbers a test server isn't worth the time and effort.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 881	Posted - 2013.08.31 23:56:00 - [9] - Quote Not having a test server didn't created any problems. It may help find some but it didn't create any. The problems we have are normal problems. The problems seem worse because of the SP system. We feel locked into a role and we feel like prototype gear is the only answer to every problem. We don't try before we buy and we are used to games that allow us to do anything we want pretty much whenever we want without consequences. It is a mentality problem more than anything.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 882	Posted - 2013.09.01 00:00:00 - [10] - Quote 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Respecs for unhappy allocation isn't a good reason for refunds like being happy with my placement is not a reason against. I love my builds but I made mistakes and I skilled into things I don't like or are unhappy with performance. There is nothing I can do about it and I moved on, I want ewar so I speced into active scanners, they feel pointless. I will use them again and they will be tweaked so my SP wasn't wasted. That doesn't mean I am happy about it but I suck it up and keep going. The main point I try to keep making is try before blindly dumping into high level skills. It does help. That's a problem, most cant extensively try something out unless you have aurum, and some people don't even have aurum. and you may say "make an alt and try it out" remember not everyone thinks the same so most wouldn't think of that or they just don't have the SP. Most items have militia versions and most level one skills are cheap (five battles cheap), not being able to try anything because of lack of real life money isn't a valid argument. All items are available in game for ISK.

The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 882	Posted - 2013.09.01 00:19:00 - [11] - Quote 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Most items have militia versions and most level one skills are cheap (five battles cheap), not being able to try anything because of lack of real life money isn't a valid argument. All items are available in game for ISK. Which requires you to use SP to obtain which nullifies but at the same time help your statement Malitia require no skill and yes level one cost sp but it so little I don't consider it a cost. When I say try before by I mean try before spending level 3 points on and item you haven't used. Aura items require skill points so they are in the same place as any other item. Aur items are a trap like lottery tickets, if you believe that they help you win then you have already lost.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 882	Posted - 2013.09.01 00:27:00 - [12] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Most items have militia versions and most level one skills are cheap (five battles cheap), not being able to try anything because of lack of real life money isn't a valid argument. All items are available in game for ISK. Which requires you to use SP to obtain which nullifies but at the same time help your statement That SP argument could potentially be a partial counter to the post if it hadn't included this part: The Robot Devil wrote: most level one skills are cheap (five battles cheap) I try to be fair and see both sides. This game is complicated to discuss because of all the possibilities and view points.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 882	Posted - 2013.09.01 00:33:00 - [13] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: Well as i have said before to me there really are 2 options that CCP has to make this game very successful. The first and probably most popular would be to have a REAL play test server. This would be a server where hundred of hardcore gamers are invited to play. This is where players get all sorts of goodies to play with and break and such before released to the general public. They would have first crack at everything and get to have all sorts of fun testing weapons that on initial release are OP. CCP would get all sorts of data on this and be able to release a balanced weapon. However i have no confidence that will ever be the case. So because of CCP's lack of ability to release balanced weapons and such i believe that they should be very willing to give out at the very least partial re-specs. This would apply any time they make major changes to any item and allow people that specked into said item to change their mind. I consider this holing CCP to the same standards they hold players to. If i spec into a dropsuit that has a ehp of 2k with no mods and has the run speed of an assault suit then a month later ccp cuts the ehps in half and makes it as slow as a heavy i should be able to get those sp's back. Its not my fault they released a very desirable product to me that didnt require a glitch to make it awesome. Yes this would result in a lot of what people call flavor of the month. Keep in mind this is not my preferred solution either. I would prefer a test server We don't need anything to draw players away from the real game. How are we going to select the invites? Giving players a place to go where stats aren't tracked and decisions don't matter then they will play there because they want a game that lets them do what they want. I think it is bad because for the time the server is up lots of players will flock there just for fun instead of playing on the real server for fun. Lots of people don't like the SP system or loosing expensive gear and a test server only gives them a place to go. If CCP send invites to select mercs then they are playing favorites and the tin foil will be folded into many hats.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 882	Posted - 2013.09.01 00:37:00 - [14] - Quote Assert Dominance wrote: Honestly this communitys total IQ hurts, respecs should be given bi-monthly. This is a beta ffs. They developed it and released it so it is not a Beta because they say so. No other option counts because they said it is released. You can call it beta all you want but they own the game and they say it is release. Bi-monthly respecs would kill this game in four months. If you think it is bad now just imagine people only playing on weeks 7-9 of the respec.
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 882	Posted - 2013.09.01 00:42:00 - [15] - Quote 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Malitia require no skill and yes level one cost sp but it so little I don't consider it a cost. When I say try before by I mean try before spending level 3 points on and item you haven't used. Aura items require skill points so they are in the same place as any other item. Aur items are a trap like lottery tickets, if you believe that they help you win then you have already lost. Militia is garbage and basic is far from Advanced equipment so if you wanted to really get a feel for something then you would have to get the advanced to see how it does which is a bit of SP to get which would be a waste if it doesn't work how its supposed to or its broken. There are still good aurum Items which are worth using aurum for. The lower levels do suck but they are stepping stones and are not intended to replace prototype. Getting a feel for the item and getting good with it are two different things. I am only speaking about trying items not playing with them for long stretches of time. The problem shifts to matchmaking if you bring in effectiveness of basic items. We need battles segregated by sec status and then have the sec stat determine what gear is used. My idea
The Robot Devil Echo Galactic Industries 882	Posted - 2013.09.01 00:49:00 - [16] - Quote 5P3CTR3 R1S1NG wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Assert Dominance wrote: Honestly this communitys total IQ hurts, respecs should be given bi-monthly. This is a beta ffs. They developed it and released it so it is not a Beta because they say so. No other option counts because they said it is released. You can call it beta all you want but they own the game and they say it is release. Bi-monthly respecs would kill this game in four months. If you think it is bad now just imagine people only playing on weeks 7-9 of the respec. We would all be happy if a respec came so we can try other things and so this war on respecs can stop. I don't think it would bring happiness because what you have now is what you though would make you happy. We need the things we want to be balanced and fun. If we can get to a point where lots of people are playing and we have lots of content then this SP argument will die but until then only content will make us feel happy. Repecs are going to make some players happy for a while and some mad for a while but it doesn't address the real problem we have which is the game is boring.