DUST Search - [request] allow passengers to shoot from dropship

D legendary hero wrote:

I don't understand why people are so scared of heavy weapons being fired from a DS.

HMGs are garbage in general but especially at range. even with the buff they are still pretty poor. So have a weapon with crazy spread at long range trying to take out round infantry is not a feaseble threat. really... with missile turrets gunners get shot out by scrabler rifles and GARs, do you really think an HMG with less range is going to be more effective?

Forge guns got a range nerf and a splash damage nerf so its the opposite end of the HMG. You have an extremely precise weapon that you can't use ADS, and your trying to hit moving targets with no cover? seriously the dropships are open, and the passenger's can not move. any noob with an AR can gun him down. Now, I will say that YES before the splash nerf this could have been devastating. But, now that the forge splash is nerfed, I find it hard to beleive that anyone especially in this forum would die to that.

The oonly people who might need to worry about flying forges would be heavies.... but they oretty much need to worry about everything else anyway as the largest target on the battlefield.

Flying forge vs tankers vs DS

ok. Flying forge guns would help balance out the current tank situation. why? because DS would have an offense (or rather defense) against tanks. DS would also be able to engage other dropships effectively (now DS just try to get more altitude until the ceiling, or just ram into each other. which is not actual air combat).

flying AV, (swarms, forguns) will force tankers to play more tactically. Tanks will now need to consider their movements, and map location relative to DS. DS will need to consider there range relative to tanks. etc... AVers will actually be able to keep up with the vehicle "they could have only killed if they got that last shot off".

This can do wonders for balance without a single nerf or buff.


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Serimos Haeraven The Exemplars Top Men. 603	Posted - 2014.01.17 04:31:00 - [1] - Quote Honestly, I think allowing for AV weapons to be used inside of a dropship "muddys up" the situation of vehicle balance substantially, because it would basically make a militia dropship be able to dominate a fully proto-modded and proto-skilled assault or logi dropship, just because the militia took some "decent" AV with him. It would make things un-imaginably complicated for CCP to balance all of that and make it fair for pilots who go fully-skilled into dropships, and those who just do it for shts & giggles. Right now there is an important balance to dropships; militia are hardpressed to actually take out a highly skilled assault dropship pilot, because of just that; he/she is highly skilled in both SP and talent (usually). This is how vehicle balance should feel, those who are dedicated for dropships and fly them at all times should in some ways reserve the right of an upper-hand advantage against those who do it as their side-job, and if we're to propose that AV can be fired from any dropship, that balance would be completely toppled by that alone. Just imagine the abuse this would face when a Myron comes buckling down with a fully loaded forge gun team & the Myron has heavy shield extenders (it's possible to fit 1 and 3 light complex'es). Tankers on the ground would be up in arms against this the moment it's implemented and abused by those more skilled corps that take advantage of every OP tactic available to them.
Serimos Haeraven The Exemplars Top Men. 605	Posted - 2014.01.17 18:07:00 - [2] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: I don't understand why people are so scared of heavy weapons being fired from a DS. HMGs are garbage in general but especially at range. even with the buff they are still pretty poor. So have a weapon with crazy spread at long range trying to take out round infantry is not a feaseble threat. really... with missile turrets gunners get shot out by scrabler rifles and GARs, do you really think an HMG with less range is going to be more effective? Forge guns got a range nerf and a splash damage nerf so its the opposite end of the HMG. You have an extremely precise weapon that you can't use ADS, and your trying to hit moving targets with no cover? seriously the dropships are open, and the passenger's can not move. any noob with an AR can gun him down. Now, I will say that YES before the splash nerf this could have been devastating. But, now that the forge splash is nerfed, I find it hard to beleive that anyone especially in this forum would die to that. The oonly people who might need to worry about flying forges would be heavies.... but they oretty much need to worry about everything else anyway as the largest target on the battlefield. Flying forge vs tankers vs DS ok. Flying forge guns would help balance out the current tank situation. why? because DS would have an offense (or rather defense) against tanks. DS would also be able to engage other dropships effectively (now DS just try to get more altitude until the ceiling, or just ram into each other. which is not actual air combat). flying AV, (swarms, forguns) will force tankers to play more tactically. Tanks will now need to consider their movements, and map location relative to DS. DS will need to consider there range relative to tanks. etc... AVers will actually be able to keep up with the vehicle "they could have only killed if they got that last shot off". This can do wonders for balance without a single nerf or buff. You're missing the point though, forges don't have a range nerf when compared to the range needed to hit an enemy dropship, not to mention its range is 400 meters! That kind of fire power from that distance would be incredibly devistating to other vehicles. And you're already assuming that they wouldn't allow people to move when inside the dropship, when yet you can already actively look around when you're a passenger inside of one. If forges were able to look around and shoot inside a dropship, the result would be a complete dismanteling of tiers for dropships. SP would be completely un-needed since you could skill into a viper and get 4 forge guns in the same ship and go dominate high-level tankers. As a result of SP not being a big requirement to have a strong dropship, more vehicles like these will litter the battlefield with noobs who want to try out the forge gun passenger tactic, this will result in an all new form of vehicle spam, this time for dropships. The fact you think that this would somehow add "balance" to this game is completely ridiculous, do you fly proto assault dropships at all? With my proto Python I can take out tanks quite easily, without any passengers needed, and that's what an assault dropship is for, making assaults on targets, and so AGAIN, having passengers that can shoot AV and weapons would render the assault dropship completely pointless and a waste of SP & ISK. This "use of AV" theory for passengers in dropships is one of the most rediculous and insane ideas this community could have ever come up with, and I'm sure that many proto dropship pilots like Blackhole Nova, Judge, Pvt. Numnutz, Black0ut, Ngthuros IX, Mobius, etc would agree that adding this component would absolutely ruin balance for aerial vehicles, and right at the time they were finally starting to become balanced against AV, and not-so-much against the OP Militia tank thanks to a failure in coding for militia's this build. And what a great example to highlight a similar incedent (similar to what would happen if dropships were low SP sinks), ever since the militia tanks in this build were given a low SP req and low ISK value, but high damage, players began to abuse them and spam them now and we have this situation frankly known as "tank spam", and this is souly because of the fact they are so devestating and easy to get. Now imagine a viper or myron capable of annihilating the best tanks and infantry units, as well as the best aerial pilots in the game. Don't you think this would cause the EXACT SAME influx of players to spam dropships? I don't see how people couldn't notice the similarity in this proposal, and the problem with tanks right now.
Serimos Haeraven The Exemplars Top Men. 605	Posted - 2014.01.17 23:33:00 - [3] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: If you were a pilot (fly assault dropships and regular drops. I flew dropships when they sucked hard and cost a small forune) you would know that there is no such thing as "balance" among aerial vehicles. Also, dnt forget, DS are not as easy to pilot as tanks. I have seen plenty a noob crash. The only real difference between assault dropships and militia one is the pilot operated turret. So, you can stock some forgunners on their too... Its hard for me to imagine an "ACE" pilot getting taken down by a milita dropship when you have complex mods, greater speed, agility, and fitting options militia dropships don't have. Tank spam occured because AV can't harm tanks fast enough. That is a separate unrelated issue. We are talking about dropships here. I find it hard to believe your assault dropship 1 on 1 with a tank of the same teir could destroy him if he is a decent tanker. Killing militia tanks with proto gear on DS is one thing...I have done that plenty of times but killing a tank with proto mods. lies (unless you have 2 other ADS with you) locked to one direction? Thats like saying DS and tanks should not be able to engage infantry only other DS and other tanks. Christ, getting you to understand what I'm trying to say is like attempting to force feed a prisoner in Gitmo, The reason "ACE" pilots would get taken down by militia dropships is if what you propose (AV being able to shoot from a dropship) comes true. Forge guns could shoot out of the sides, meaning that a miltia viper would be capable of dealing 2,000+ dmg in one shot from the forge gunner sitting in the passenger seat, and that's just 1 forge gun. You also contradict yourself by at first saying "there is no such thing as balance among aerial vehicles" (what?) and then at the same time saying "It's hard for me to imagine an ace getting taken down by a militia dropship". This is what balance is supposed to look like, a pilot who has skilled a lot of SP and time into flying being able to have the upperhand against those who don't invest their time & SP into dropships. And you really must not fly dropships if you think milita fits have less fitting options than assaults do, because they don't anymore. Milita gets 4 highs and 2 lows while assault variants get 2 highs and 1 low now. there's also another flaw in your statements, you seem to claim that Assault variants could do the same exact thing, yet Assaults only have 2 passenger seats, whereas militas (viper and myron) both have 4 seats they can use for passengers, excluding the side guns. And again, you failed to understand what i meant with being "locked in one direction". I was reffering to passengers only being able to look one way, so the DS has to adjust for the passengers to have a straight shot at whatever they want to aim at. If AV (forge guns) have the ability to look around wherever they want in that dropship and fire shots, it would be devestating to all vehicular balance in the game, AND YES, CCP WANTS VEHICLES TO BE BALANCED! There's pretty much no other way for me to get the point across to you other than what I have tried here. It's blatantly obvious that allowing AV to shoot from dropships would cause grief on levels no one has expereinced yet in Dust, and would have an over-all negative effect on gameplay for everyone.
Serimos Haeraven The Exemplars Top Men. 606	Posted - 2014.01.18 05:10:00 - [4] - Quote Skihids wrote: Hoover Damn wrote: Frankly if there are man-portable weapons that are significantly more powerful than emplaced weapons the emplaced weapons need a buff or the man-portable weapons need a nerf. If that bigass gun on the back of an LAV is less powerful than a forge gun or an HMG, that needs to be rectified pronto. This is the reason everyone is afraid of handheld weapons being used from open vehicles such as the LAV and dropship. That mini gun on the side of any helicopter flying today is several times more badass than anything hand carried in that same chopper. It pumps out more damage and is mounted for increased accuracy. Vehicle mounted missiles are even more scary. Why don't we have vehicle mounted swarm launcher turrets? Because LAVs and dropships have been neutered, that's why. CCP has been afraid to make them useful ever since they ruled the skies with small missiles and could outrun swarms. They taped a small missile launcher to the nose of an extra fragile dropship to distract pilots from demanding a true assault craft, one that would be used to ferry in a full squad to overwhelm a point. So full time pilots now fly around in a very expensive vehicle with a popgun instead of truly assaulting an objective. Of course we'd also need a few map and game mode changes to make that a valuable tactic, but it could be done. A swarm or forge on the FRONT turret is an entirely different discussion to be had, although I'd agree with that a lot more than the possibilty of multiple FG'ers inside a dropships being able to fire. I think forges and swarms should be optional, although high PG/CPU demanding front /side turrets for a dropship. That's really the kind of direction this topic should be trying to direct towards, in my opinion.