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Spkr4theDead
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Posted - 2013.08.28 23:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
It's simple, really. We want our tanks to be worth the investment in SP and ISK. We also don't believe we should be soloed by some scrub with Lai Dais. We do feel they should take teamwork to destroy. Got 3 guys with MLT swarms going against 2 spider tanking Gunnlogis? Those tanks should never drop below 4/5 of their max shield. Ever. Got 2 guys with assault forge guns? At least one dead tank. Got 3 guys with MLT swarms going against 2 spider tanking Madrugars? Laugh at the guys using swarms. Got 2 guys with Wiyrkomi swarms? Dead tanks.
Manage to achieve balance between PRO and a hypothetical PRO tank? Should take 2 PRO AV to destroy it. One to chase it away. No, you shouldn't be able to solo that PRO tank with your PRO AV. Why? How would you like it if the STD sniper rifle was a OHK on your ADV suit? |
Spkr4theDead
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509
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Posted - 2013.08.28 23:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Tanks and infantry are the subject of a lot of GÇÿdebateGÇÖ on the forums. The purpose of this topic is to have a reasonable discussion about the subject without everyone telling each other to go back to COD. If you post in this thread, please keep it civil. ItGÇÖs my hope that both sides can explain their concerns and needs and then we (or CCP) can think of a good compromise.
This does not concern the current state of balance. Tanks certainly do need a buff in their current state, but thatGÇÖs not the point of this thread - this is to think about where they should be in the future.
I will begin by listing the concerns (at least the ones IGÇÖm aware of, IGÇÖll update this list) of both sides.
HAV concerns:
Not isk efficient, too expensive for their cost
Too easy for a single AV specialist to destroy them or lock the field down for them
Disparity in tech levels between tanks and AV - proto AV exists while proto tanks do not
Infantry concerns:
Possibility of extremely hard to stop pubstomping machines
Fear of a complete mechanical inability to stop a tank ravaging a team
Both sides have very valid concerns. If tanks are too strong, they could easily pubstomp endlessly, with infantry getting completely crushed bar some organised AV squads. At the same time, tankers are investing significant isk into their tanks, much more than is put into any individual dropsuit, and so it should certainly be capable of doing more damage than a single dropsuit.
If it only takes one AV specialist to kill a tank, then (as tanks are such large targets and AV weapons generally have excellent range) it doesnGÇÖt take much more to effectively lock down the field for other vehicles as well, especially if the time to kill is low. This is a problem. On the other hand, if it takes multiple AV to destroy one vehicle a solo HAV pilot is effectively worth multiple players and if there isnGÇÖt an organised AV group in every match then thereGÇÖll be heavy tank pubstomping.
ThereGÇÖs a balance to be found that keeps HAVs powerful machines of war in the right circumstances but still vulnerable in the wrong circumstances.
What do you think HAVs should be like in terms of power? Post your thoughts, and try to keep it civil please.
I think an HAV should be a powerful platform that presents a serious threat to infantry, but as a multi-person vehicle. Many of the complaints about the imbalance are coming from players who try to avoid having any infantry in their secondary turrets, which are there for the purpose of trying to take out or suppress enemy infantry that the HAV isn't focused on.
How many times must we say this?
We get very stupid blue dots in our turrets practically every match. No, I don't want that idiot lighting me up on the map for Red Johnny Random to lock on to me with his cheap EZ-Mode Darkside CBR7s. I'd rather play half taxi to those idiot blue dots who may or may not jump out when I'm next to a red objective with no red dots in sight, where I KNOW for certain he can't light me up on the map, than stay in the redline for 1/3 of the match because the idiot gets mad at me that I won't give him air to shoot at.
You don't understand what it's like until you experience it for yourself. It's maddening to see some blue dot get angry at me because I won't ferry him around in my 80 ton limo (at least, that's how it seems to me how they themselves view blue dot tanks). |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
509
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Posted - 2013.08.29 00:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:It's simple, really. We want our tanks to be worth the investment in SP and ISK. We also don't believe we should be soloed by some scrub with Lai Dais. We do feel they should take teamwork to destroy. Got 3 guys with MLT swarms going against 2 spider tanking Gunnlogis? Those tanks should never drop below 4/5 of their max shield. Ever. Got 2 guys with assault forge guns? At least one dead tank. Got 3 guys with MLT swarms going against 2 spider tanking Madrugars? Laugh at the guys using swarms. Got 2 guys with Wiyrkomi swarms? Dead tanks.
Manage to achieve balance between PRO and a hypothetical PRO tank? Should take 2 PRO AV to destroy it. One to chase it away. No, you shouldn't be able to solo that PRO tank with your PRO AV. Why? How would you like it if the STD sniper rifle was a OHK on your ADV suit? That mostly seems quite fair. What do you think of the current costs of tanks? How much do you think it would be reasonable for a PRO tank to cost with that level of power, given that isk to power ratio gets higher at that point? Also, do you think that slightly lesser amounts of AV than your cited 'kill numbers' should be sufficient to make tanks take cover on occasion?
Turret prices need to be reduced. Module prices could be reduced by a small percentage. Why does my extra HP cost more than a PRO AV weapon?
Enforcers should be removed, and PRO hulls should take up the cost of 1.2 mil ISK.
If one guy with MLT swarms is launching at a good fit Madrugar, no, the tank should stay there and laugh. |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
509
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 00:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Obodiah Garro wrote:HAV atm have no clear mission in the game. They are a crutch, an extra 7k ehp for a lone soldier to roll around and shoot at infantry while still protected by whatever dropsuit they use.
Its hard to balance HAV ehp against AV because all AV are situational, there are no omni damage weapons that deal with the different types of HAV that are present.
Straight up, get rid of HAV or buff them and make the gunner and pilot seperate. Making AV work in groups against a HAV is only credible if it takes a group to operate a game changer like a HAV in the first place.
Otherwise, let single AV destroy HAV, the AV runner needs to take the risk to be inefficient against the primary threat (infantry) while at the same time the HAV pilot effectively has a second life (his dropsuit).
LOLWUT
Homing swarms that do ~2500 per volley is a crutch. AV grenades that do ~2000 each are a crutch. It's pathetically easy to solo a tank if the pilot isn't paying attention.
Obodiah Garro wrote:Straight up, get rid of HAV
At least you're honest about it. Fine. I'll accept that if you agree to lose all level 5 gear. |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
509
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 00:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:It's simple, really. We want our tanks to be worth the investment in SP and ISK. We also don't believe we should be soloed by some scrub with Lai Dais. We do feel they should take teamwork to destroy. Got 3 guys with MLT swarms going against 2 spider tanking Gunnlogis? Those tanks should never drop below 4/5 of their max shield. Ever. Got 2 guys with assault forge guns? At least one dead tank. Got 3 guys with MLT swarms going against 2 spider tanking Madrugars? Laugh at the guys using swarms. Got 2 guys with Wiyrkomi swarms? Dead tanks.
Manage to achieve balance between PRO and a hypothetical PRO tank? Should take 2 PRO AV to destroy it. One to chase it away. No, you shouldn't be able to solo that PRO tank with your PRO AV. Why? How would you like it if the STD sniper rifle was a OHK on your ADV suit? That mostly seems quite fair. What do you think of the current costs of tanks? How much do you think it would be reasonable for a PRO tank to cost with that level of power, given that isk to power ratio gets higher at that point? Also, do you think that slightly lesser amounts of AV than your cited 'kill numbers' should be sufficient to make tanks take cover on occasion? Turret prices need to be reduced. Module prices could be reduced by a small percentage. Why does my extra HP cost more than a PRO AV weapon? Enforcers should be removed, and PRO hulls should take up the cost of 1.2 mil ISK. If one guy with MLT swarms is launching at a good fit Madrugar, no, the tank should stay there and laugh. Thats like saying if one guy is shooting at me with a MLT AR I should laugh.
What, you don't have better than MLT gear yourself?
What part of tank eludes you? |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
521
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Posted - 2013.08.29 04:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Obodiah Garro wrote:Void Echo wrote:
and that's where it needs to start.. vehicles are not dropsuits and shouldn't be balanced as such, they are entirely different from vehicles, it needs to be separated from infantry balances entirely if anything were to be done properly.
So then as a HAV pilot what do you consider a balanced AV response to the threat you bring to the battlefield? In your opinion what is the fair equaliser to HAV in terms of manpower the other team needs to bring in?
Bring in a more powerful tank. |
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