DUST Search - Redlines, Blueballs, Escalation, and Tearicide

ZDub 303 wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

I do like your ideas, and there is some merit in them. What I'd much rather see though is a proper matchmaking to separate the tech levels and then have various specialisations on each tech level. You'd still have advantages from speccing into higher tiers when playing on the lower tiers, but only minor ones, much like your idea. One key thing is that it has a more advanced progression than just tweaking your fit slightly.

What would you think of the following?

- Proper matchmaking, separated by tech level (except in PC or FW matches).
- Proper risk for using protosuits - essentially, a fixed economy so it's not normally viable to protostomp 23/7.
- An improved SP system so it's not as ludicrously grindy.
- Specialisations on each tech level, much like you suggested but for each tech level.

I am fine with every aspect of the SP system except for drop suits. Mostly because i can't ever imagine a situation where I would not run a proto dropsuit, so i cannot even use another dropsuit until ive gone level 5 in it. The cost of 2.5 million SP required to change suits is whats turning me off.

Matchmaking is somewhat unrelated imo, yes it's necessary but it doesn't address the power disparity, all it does is force you to use your best gear always as you will always be facing people in their best gear.

I'm not sure how to implement a fixed economy, i don't know if that will help or hurt the proto situation.

I'm not sure what you mean about specializations on each tech level either? You might have to go into that a little more.


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Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2801	Posted - 2013.08.28 20:39:00 - [1] - Quote Tiericide was always a misnomer for what most people are after. Techicide is more accurate - This is very similar to getting rid of faction and T2 kit in EVE for just T1.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2803	Posted - 2013.08.28 21:26:00 - [2] - Quote gbghg wrote: In dust we're effectively throwing both groups into the same arena and tell them to fight each other, it's very poor design. The standard MMO setup just doesn't work in an FPS, FPS's rely on players being on a level playing field, where aiming, accuracy, cover, and weapon choice are the defining factor, right now we see too much emphasis on one side and not enough on the other. Then why not go for proper matchmaking? The problem with tiers isn't the fact that there are tiers, it's that the lower tiers are forced against the higher tiers. Looking at other games, this would be akin to bringing in a Tier X tank into a Tier I match in world of tanks, for example. This is the real problem. gbghg wrote: And your right, we can't just eliminate tiers without replacing them, myself and several others (who have made much better proposals than me) have offered systems where tiers are replaced by a system more focused on role bonus's than on simply having a suit being better in every respect. They're not perfect, nothing ever is, but they make much more sense than our current system. And as Zdub pointed out in another thread, when you think about tiers are very much a P2W system, by forking out more ISK you are gaining a large advantage over other players, our entire gear system right now is a P2W system. ISK is the free to play currency. That doesn't equal 'P2W' as you're not actually paying. That may be dodging the point slightly, so I'll answer what I think you intended to say. AUR doesn't grant any advantage that can't be gained through normal gameplay. It shortens the grind, but that's not 'Pay to win'. There's nothing you can do with aurum that you can't do with isk given slightly more time. Additionally, how does CCP make money from removing the tier system? I'm sure plenty of people on the forums like the idea of CCP not making any money, but they have to monetise something. There isn't any incentive to pay just for a tweak on your dropsuit - the progression goes out the window with techicide.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2804	Posted - 2013.08.28 21:50:00 - [3] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Tiericide was always a misnomer for what most people are after. Techicide is more accurate - This is very similar to getting rid of faction and T2 kit in EVE for just T1. faction and T II stuff is still in EVE, so wtf are you talking about? Tiercide ftw. Peace, Godin No, what I mean is that removing the STD, ADV and PRO power levels in dust would be akin to removing T2 and faction ships in EVE - they're on different power levels. Tiericide is a rebalancing within that power level to remove 'tiers' - somewhat like assault type-IIs used to be better than assault type-Is - they were on a better 'tier' within that class.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2804	Posted - 2013.08.28 22:06:00 - [4] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I agree with your points totally. The current system is 90% of the way there. But I still think tiered dropsuits are pay to win, you arent paying real money but you are just buying power essentially. That's the case in pretty much any F2P where you pay to shorten the grind. The solution to this problem is proper matchmaking though. ZDub 303 wrote: I think CCP has the answer already, we need to emulate vehicles. So... we remove dropsuit tiers. I don't understand. How would removing tech levels be emulating vehicles? Vehicles are getting standard, advanced and proto things in 1.5. ZDub 303 wrote: So for example. Caldari Logistics Dropsuit 1 unlocks the dropsuit itself. The skill then has a fairly powerful bonus attached to it for that suit... so you can specialize into the suit if you like or you can just unlock it. I think if we rebalanced the slot and CPU/PG on all suits to some sort of standard and you leave suit bonuses. For example: Caldari Logistics Dropsuit: 1. Reduces CPU/PG on equipment by 5% per level 2. (insert whatever their new equipment bonus will) by x% per level 3. Increases CPU/PG by 2% per level. So now if I go level 1 in this, I have the same suit as a guy who is level 5 in it, but that guy have some nice bonuses that justify the SP expenditure as he specialized into the suit. If I go level 3 in it, he's now only ~10% more powerful than I am. Which follows the '10% power per tier' we see in weapons. Then you offer 'Neo' Aurum dropsuits. They require no skill, they are unaffected by passives, and they carry the same benefits as someone who went level 5 in a dropsuit tree. i.e. 'Neo' Logistics Dropsuit. 1. Reduces CPU/PG on equipment by 25% (NOT per level) 2. (insert whatever their new equipment bonus will) by (5*x%) (NOT per level) 3. Comes with 10% more CPU/PG. So aurum suits would have the same effective benefits as having a completely max skilled isk suit? That's not a huge amount. I think that if this happened it would cheapen the progression. I don't straight out disagree - the power difference is too great, and the SP system too grindy, but I don't think there's as much progression if the bonuses are only very minor. I do like your ideas, and there is some merit in them. What I'd much rather see though is a proper matchmaking to separate the tech levels and then have various specialisations on each tech level. You'd still have advantages from speccing into higher tiers when playing on the lower tiers, but only minor ones, much like your idea. One key thing is that it has a more advanced progression than just tweaking your fit slightly. What would you think of the following? - Proper matchmaking, separated by tech level (except in PC or FW matches). - Proper risk for using protosuits - essentially, a fixed economy so it's not normally viable to protostomp 23/7. - An improved SP system so it's not as ludicrously grindy. - Specialisations on each tech level, much like you suggested but for each tech level.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2804	Posted - 2013.08.28 22:14:00 - [5] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: 1) Please define 'massive' in your terms. In terms of PRO vs. STD gear I see at best a doubling, maybe tripling of eHP. And with DPS, PRO gear gets at best 50% -75% more dps after max skills. Seriously?? I mean really? You can't see how having 3x the HP and +75% DPS on the other guy is beyond insane from an FPS design perspective? This isn't some gradual curve either with proto sets being "pay-walled" behind a large number of L5 skills. 75% isn't a realistic number. It's nowhere near realistic - with 5 complex damage mods and proficiency 5, you'll get a little over half that, and if you do that you certainly won't have the HP advantage. The main problem is the HP bricking.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2807	Posted - 2013.08.28 23:13:00 - [6] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I do like your ideas, and there is some merit in them. What I'd much rather see though is a proper matchmaking to separate the tech levels and then have various specialisations on each tech level. You'd still have advantages from speccing into higher tiers when playing on the lower tiers, but only minor ones, much like your idea. One key thing is that it has a more advanced progression than just tweaking your fit slightly. What would you think of the following? - Proper matchmaking, separated by tech level (except in PC or FW matches). - Proper risk for using protosuits - essentially, a fixed economy so it's not normally viable to protostomp 23/7. - An improved SP system so it's not as ludicrously grindy. - Specialisations on each tech level, much like you suggested but for each tech level. I am fine with every aspect of the SP system except for drop suits. Mostly because i can't ever imagine a situation where I would not run a proto dropsuit, so i cannot even use another dropsuit until ive gone level 5 in it. The cost of 2.5 million SP required to change suits is whats turning me off. Matchmaking is somewhat unrelated imo, yes it's necessary but it doesn't address the power disparity, all it does is force you to use your best gear always as you will always be facing people in their best gear. I'm not sure how to implement a fixed economy, i don't know if that will help or hurt the proto situation. I'm not sure what you mean about specializations on each tech level either? You might have to go into that a little more. For the matchmaking I was thinking of a system where you could choose the bracket to go in - for example, you could choose to go in the standard bracket but be limited to standard gear and be unable to use prototype gear in it, even if you could use it normally. I strongly believe that matchmaking has the ability to help the protostomping situation a lot if done correctly. The 2.5 mil SP requirement for a single protosuit is exactly what I mean by a grindy system, though there are other flaws as well. It's not just grindy there - three weeks of non-stop grinding for complex shield extenders is a little much. It might not be hugely noticeable because you already have them, though. I feel that a fixed economy would help because it wouldn't be economical to run protosuits all the time for as many people. On the specialisations in the tech levels - I seem to recall that in a number of 'tiericide' ideas there have been suggestions that in the new system there would be suits which would tweak attributes, like sacrificing some speed for damage, or tank for speed, etc. That'd keep the tech levels from becoming as stale as there'd be more variety even in the same racial sets. That's what I was referring to - putting those in, but in each tech level.