DUST Search - Rooftops are OP - Logicloop please redesign

Django Quik wrote:

There's been several heated discussions lately about tower sniping (mostly of the forge gun variety). Now in some cases the weapons do need some tweaking (ahem assault forge gun) but on the whole the problem is not the weapons, the suits, the players or the gear - it is the fact that many of the rooftops are such perfect sniping perches.

If you have a wide flat surface a hundred meters up, you create the following situation:
1) Only one way to get there - dropship
2) Once up there, only 2 infantry weapons can get range on you
3) Players are only visible at the edge of the roof
4) Roofs typically have view over at least 3/4 of the map

This results in the recent problems we have all been experiencing with tower forge gunners - they have the range and damage to get kills all over the place and any time anyone manages to get a hit on them, they just back away from the edge to rep and they're entirely safe. A lucky sniper might get off two quick headshots or a very lucky forge gunner on the ground might get that one direct hit to take him out but otherwise you're only hope is to fly a dropship up there and drop in on him - unfortunately, it is extremely easy to see a dropship coming in and take it out before it even gets a few meters off the ground.

The answer however, is not to change anything with forge guns or dropships or snipers or anything like that - what we need is better designed rooftops:

Every high flat roof in the game should be redesigned in one of the following two ways:
1) Reduce cover - roofs should either be slanted or peaked; this would mean that players can't just hide from any fire by backing away from the edge.
2) Reduce view - add walls or lips to the edges of the roof, so that the field of view is greatly hindered and can not be used as an unreachable sniping perch.

Now not all roofs need this treatment, particularly lower ones but anything that is unreachable without a dropship should allow reasonable opportunity to kill (not just get a single shot on) players camping there.

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Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1345	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:15:00 - [1] - Quote There's been several heated discussions lately about tower sniping (mostly of the forge gun variety). Now in some cases the weapons do need some tweaking (ahem assault forge gun) but on the whole the problem is not the weapons, the suits, the players or the gear - it is the fact that many of the rooftops are such perfect sniping perches. If you have a wide flat surface a hundred meters up, you create the following situation: 1) Only one way to get there - dropship 2) Once up there, only 2 infantry weapons can get range on you 3) Players are only visible at the edge of the roof 4) Roofs typically have view over at least 3/4 of the map This results in the recent problems we have all been experiencing with tower forge gunners - they have the range and damage to get kills all over the place and any time anyone manages to get a hit on them, they just back away from the edge to rep and they're entirely safe. A lucky sniper might get off two quick headshots or a very lucky forge gunner on the ground might get that one direct hit to take him out but otherwise you're only hope is to fly a dropship up there and drop in on him - unfortunately, it is extremely easy to see a dropship coming in and take it out before it even gets a few meters off the ground. The answer however, is not to change anything with forge guns or dropships or snipers or anything like that - what we need is better designed rooftops: Every high flat roof in the game should be redesigned in one of the following two ways: 1) Reduce cover - roofs should either be slanted or peaked; this would mean that players can't just hide from any fire by backing away from the edge. 2) Reduce view - add walls or lips to the edges of the roof, so that the field of view is greatly hindered and can not be used as an unreachable sniping perch. Now not all roofs need this treatment, particularly lower ones but anything that is unreachable without a dropship should allow reasonable opportunity to kill (not just get a single shot on) players camping there.
Knight Soiaire Better Hide R Die 2092	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:18:00 - [2] - Quote They could just make it so that Equipment fizzles out above a certain altitude, to make sure that any height advantage on a rooftop is always only tomporary. Of course the point at which equipment fizzles out will be unique to each map.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3355	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:18:00 - [3] - Quote Django Quik wrote: There's been several heated discussions lately about tower sniping (mostly of the forge gun variety). Now in some cases the weapons do need some tweaking (ahem assault forge gun) but on the whole the problem is not the weapons, the suits, the players or the gear - it is the fact that many of the rooftops are such perfect sniping perches. If you have a wide flat surface a hundred meters up, you create the following situation: 1) Only one way to get there - dropship 2) Once up there, only 2 infantry weapons can get range on you 3) Players are only visible at the edge of the roof 4) Roofs typically have view over at least 3/4 of the map This results in the recent problems we have all been experiencing with tower forge gunners - they have the range and damage to get kills all over the place and any time anyone manages to get a hit on them, they just back away from the edge to rep and they're entirely safe. A lucky sniper might get off two quick headshots or a very lucky forge gunner on the ground might get that one direct hit to take him out but otherwise you're only hope is to fly a dropship up there and drop in on him - unfortunately, it is extremely easy to see a dropship coming in and take it out before it even gets a few meters off the ground. The answer however, is not to change anything with forge guns or dropships or snipers or anything like that - what we need is better designed rooftops: Every high flat roof in the game should be redesigned in one of the following two ways: 1) Reduce cover - roofs should either be slanted or peaked; this would mean that players can't just hide from any fire by backing away from the edge. 2) Reduce view - add walls or lips to the edges of the roof, so that the field of view is greatly hindered and can not be used as an unreachable sniping perch. Now not all roofs need this treatment, particularly lower ones but anything that is unreachable without a dropship should allow reasonable opportunity to kill (not just get a single shot on) players camping there. The real problem with tower Forging is the weapon still having pretty good splash radius and damage, and everyone freaking out if you even hint at changing any of its stats.
CHIPMINT BUTTERCUP KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 85	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:18:00 - [4] - Quote Or we just need Jet Packs.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3356	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:19:00 - [5] - Quote Knight Soiaire wrote: They could just make it so that Equipment fizzles out above a certain altitude, to make sure that any height advantage on a rooftop is always only tomporary. Of course the point at which equipment fizzles out will be unique to each map. I don't like the idea of arbitrarily constraining the ability of players to use the environment to their advantage.
echo47 Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 43	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:24:00 - [6] - Quote Or you could just have your AV team mates zoom ot he other side of the map, even just half way and destroy the dropship before they have the chance to get on the roof top. If you are paying attention its always the same corps and players that do it. See them in the line its safe to assume they are looking for the safety of a rooftop.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3797	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:28:00 - [7] - Quote ahem... jet packs.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1346	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:36:00 - [8] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: ahem... jet packs. Yes, jet packs would be a possible counter to tower campers but we're a long long way off from that sort of thing - redesigning rooftops is far more feasible within a reasonable timescale.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3358	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:44:00 - [9] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: ahem... jet packs. I hope they never do anything that silly. That would break more than it could ever possibly fix.
Serimos Haeraven Deep Space Republic Top Men. 447	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:52:00 - [10] - Quote From what i have experienced there are really only a few certain buildings that give forge gunner's the upper hand in basically hiding on the top of a sky-scraper, and the ones that are the most abused are the very large towers (almost look like they are from halo), with the completely flat roofs, and the giant circular building in the middle of the city that provides a ton of cover and room to set up tons of uplinks every where. It was proposed a while back that they should make the surface of these structures "Slippery", meaning that no matter what, when you get on them your character starts to slide off of the building, this would allow for them to still be used as a spawn-point to get to objectives without being killed from the start, and also keep forge gunners and snipers from abusing the height that no one can get them at, honestly this is personally my favorite option if it comes down to keeping the abuse out of people getting on skyscrapers.

Smooth Assassin Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 94	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:56:00 - [11] - Quote CHIPMINT BUTTERCUP wrote: Or we just need Jet Packs. Won't go that high though.
HYENAKILLER X TEAM SHINOBI 225	Posted - 2013.08.28 19:06:00 - [12] - Quote Thibk of high points like the opening scene on mortal combat anhilation. Everyone should be trying to get there.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1356	Posted - 2013.08.28 19:15:00 - [13] - Quote I believe they said they are working on a "lift" system. I don't want rooftops to be removed, just more accessible.
HyperionsThunder Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 29	Posted - 2013.08.28 19:56:00 - [14] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I believe they said they are working on a "lift" system. I don't want rooftops to be removed, just more accessible. I agree very much with this sentiment. The rooftops should just be easier to access. Also, you can counter snipe the forge gunners with another forge gun. Just charge it up, wait for them to stop, and POW! Maybe they will just make swarms lock on to heavies, too!
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1347	Posted - 2013.08.28 20:28:00 - [15] - Quote HyperionsThunder wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I believe they said they are working on a "lift" system. I don't want rooftops to be removed, just more accessible. I agree very much with this sentiment. The rooftops should just be easier to access. Also, you can counter snipe the forge gunners with another forge gun. Just charge it up, wait for them to stop, and POW! Maybe they will just make swarms lock on to heavies, too! Yes, easier accessible roofs would be good but this lift system doesn't sound like it's coming any time too soon. And yes, you can snipe a forge gunner with a forge gun - I said this in the OP - but it's very difficult and you have to be very lucky because you won't get any splash damage on them because they're above you. Furthermore, there needs to be more than one reasonable counter to this tactic. Also, you can't forge snipe someone on a tower as soon as they back away from the edge.
Xender17 Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 498	Posted - 2013.08.28 20:29:00 - [16] - Quote In reality... All these buildings would have ladders or staircases inside them.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders 718	Posted - 2013.08.28 20:29:00 - [17] - Quote More Ladders?
Django Quik Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1347	Posted - 2013.08.28 20:32:00 - [18] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: More Ladders? Logicloop already said they don't like using ladders too much. Besides, ever tried getting up the one or two really long ladders to get on the massive towers that are on occasional sockets? If you don't get sniped in the 20 seconds it takes, it's a miracle.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3803	Posted - 2013.08.28 20:40:00 - [19] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: ahem... jet packs. I hope they never do anything that silly. That would break more than it could ever possibly fix. Not if you put limited fuel on the packs and limit their handling to just being a ballistic trajectory. It would actually make it easy tto get sniped at. Just look at Halo. Jet packs are everywhere in Halo yet everyone can already shoot those players out of the sky just by leading the target as always.
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core Gallente Federation 232	Posted - 2013.08.28 21:33:00 - [20] - Quote They lowered the flight ceiling for dropships at some point during beta to discourage tower camping,but took it out for some reason.iI don't think CCP will do anything about it again seeings as they already did it before,plus if they did they being killing a gameplay dynamic of the battlefield again.

Shotty GoBang Intara Direct Action Caldari State 689	Posted - 2013.08.28 21:44:00 - [21] - Quote Agreed. Rooftops are too good. Here's Logic Loop's old thread on the topic: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=945758
Gh0st C0de Spirit Collective 12	Posted - 2013.08.28 22:39:00 - [22] - Quote Solution: Add ladder access to all skyscraper type edifices, sneak up and nova knife the gunner in the back. Will this work? Hell if I know. Will it benefit my non Forge Gun sniping? Yes. Dropships are expensive. Selfish post is selfish.


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