DUST Search - Can someone explain Dust racial philosophies?

Vespasian Andendare wrote:

Beren Hurin wrote:

You just can't expect things to work exactly like Eve. To have an armor tank that can sustain incoming fire at close range would be rather overpowered. Even shield tanks have to get out after taking heavy fire, but their regen rate lets them get into battle quickly. I think its fair that to get the same kind of regen on its armor as shield tanks get is to either have deployed reps, or rely on logistics, which ends up providing an even better repping speed. After all the gallente logistics is arguably the better logi-hull.

Oh, I don't. I expected some variation. I was moreso explaining racial philosophies in Eve, because there's many factors that go into how armor tanking vs shield tanking works for spaceships, but some posters here may not be aware of them. I was asking questions like "Well if Amarr are tanky and slow, how do we put damage on their target??"

I just didn't expect that racial philosophies with respect to their innate qualities or "flavors" would go away. Honestly, the idea that Amarr are the best balanced shield/armor race made me do a double take. Caldari suddenly being fleet-footed had me scratching my head. Minmatar I think represent the best overall of their reflection of their Eve counterparts with their speed, but the inherent weakness that comes with it is questionable--but certainly understandable given that they'll avoid a lot of damage with speed--also questionable is their 5 shield prototype suits.

I'm sure when the racial variants on weapons/suits are fleshed out, the total picture will begin to make more sense. Reading what you wrote about the racial qualities currently in Dust with relation to stamina, fittings, etc. cleared the picture up somewhat. Don't get me wrong: it's nice to approach Dust and learn "new" racial philosophies....it's just if you tell me Amarr are some shield loving, land lovers, then I'll call you a liar every time. :P


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Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1250	Posted - 2013.08.27 15:15:00 - [1] - Quote They don't all have their correct weapon layouts yet, but when you look at the current assault stats, combine them with the logis, and look at the weapon range/damage profiles I think you get something like: Amarr (mid-range, vesitility focuses on resiliance and utility): Strong Hybrid regen, slow, significant armor buffer/ utility in lowslots, high stamina. Logis are more for utility/combat support because the assaults are more likely to have local reps. Anti-shield weapons' engagement range at medium to long ranges means they are fully utilizing their ability to recover from damage quickly, control distance from target, and pick their battles. Their long range weapons means that if they are defending an area, they should keep enemies outside of closing range. Gallente (close range, heavy hitting, slow, high ehp slow regen w/o logistics: More lowslots than amarr in general, potentially slower with higher armor buffer and hybrid weapon bonus means potential for the highest DPS assaults/heavies with competitive eHP combination compared to other races. Weakness is speed and lack of shield/shield regen. Weapon profile (plasma) is meant for close range engagement (<40m) with the best weapon for point-blank engagements (shotgun). Much more remote logistics-rep oriented with higher armor HP levels. Best at defending objectives with the ability to take cover and recover from explosives bombardment. Having mostly armor HP allows them to utilize anti-shield splash tactics to their advantage. Caldari (mid-long range oriented, heavy shield buffer, quick) Rail weapons + high buffer will mean that Caldari can maintain aggressive attacks at some of the longest ranges while taking little threatening damage. Their shield tanks also allow them to utilize some dangerous explosive weapons at closer ranges than others. Quickly covering the distance with their speed, but lower stamina to hack an objective after eliminating the enemy, and then moving back into a defensive position would be their 'rail-oriented' tactic. Their logisics are likely less 'repair' oriented, and instead can focus on tactical utility (uplinks, hives, mines, scanners) on the battlefield, supporting the squad with its mobility and high buffer as well. Minmatar (mid-close range, slash, hack, dash) Eventually the minmatar weapons (explosives/projectile) will allow accurate engagements but medium damage across some of the widest optimal ranges. This will let their weaker, but faster dropsuits to dodge fire, get in and out of the objective before a counter attack, and without having to need the high amounts of eHP to defend an objective. Their quicker logistics, scouts and heavies, will mean that the entire squad will remain mobile and well supplied.
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1251	Posted - 2013.08.27 16:09:00 - [2] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: It should have been: Armor Shield Amarr > Gallente > Minmatar > Caldari But it's not. So, can anyone explain what I'm missing here? Does the Caldari ck.0 suit get a better shield tank with a 4/3 slot layout than a Minmatar mk.0 suit does with 5/2? Does Amarr have a better armor tanking setup with their 3/3 over the similar Gallente gk.0 with 3/4? It feels like I'm missing something....some piece of the puzzle, so if anyone can shed some light on this for me, please do! One word explanation, "CCP"[/quote] Amarr ak.o vs. Gallente gk.0: So I think there is a lot of layers here. You can't just talk about armor vs. shield tanking. I think you have to talk about tanking type + damage type and also compare the other nuanced differences. limiting for PG/CPU When comparing two suit types, I like to imagine both protosuits having max skills and then comparing advantages in terms of 'effective slots'. Gallente gk.0 fitting: 375/75; Amarr ak.0 +63 more PG/+13 more CPU fitting A max skilled Duvolle AR is 63/11 CPU/PG. On a gk.0 it is 47/8. Amarr ak.o Carthum ASR is 58/12. We don't have a hybrid sidearm yet, but it probably requires less fitting than the scrambler pistol like the AR does vs. the SR. So after the hybrid fitting skill bonus is applied, and both suits are fitting PRO weapons the gallente suit comes out with a >20 CPU savings on weapons and 5-10 PG savings (especially if the ak.0 goes with a laser rifle or regular SR which are more intensive). After this weapon comparison, you can see two assaults with proto weapons and a 3/3 and 3/4 layout. The 3/3 (ak.0) suit has only a 40 CPU and 4-5 PG (or less) advantage on the 3/4 (gk.0) suit. You could say that a PG/CPU mod can cover this delta easily, and enable the gk.0 to more easily chose between a PG heavy mostly armor fit, or a more CPU heavy DPS (damage mod) fit compared to the ak.0. Other smaller attributes start to help define their roles a little further. The lower gk.0 stamina pool vs the amarr ak.0 means the ak.o has 'about' a basic stamina module's worth of stamina more than the gk.0. This means an additional stamina mod will have more effect on the ak.0 proving the ak.0 to have significantly more endurance to deal with its nature to get into position for longer range engagements. At the same time, the gk.0 has approximately 1 STD kincat module's speed advantage over the ak.0 The ak.0 has between a STD and ADV module shield delay advantage, making its higher base shield buffer that much more advantageous. I really think looking at it this way teases out the nuances between the two suits' roles.
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1255	Posted - 2013.08.27 20:07:00 - [3] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: See, these are wrong. Gallente is supposed to have a medium buffer, and a high regen, and medium speed. Caldari is supposed to be slow, long range, and high shield buffer. That's why it gets ****** up in terms of balance between Gallente and Caldari. You can trade buffer for regen in gallente suits pretty easily which would increase speed. It just makes more sense for logistics to be the basis for repair for the whole races' strategy meta because their logi has a 4th slot WITH fittings bonuses. So it makes sense to make the most of those slots. Ofc there isn't anything keeping a team from mixing and matching racial suits and everything. I do think that maybe caldari stamina and stamina regen could be a bit lower rather than their max speed. This essentially lowers the amount of ground they can cover over time. But what CCP did in the last patch was made it a tad more difficult to have high shield, and high shield regen and low delay at the same time. This makes it so that Caldari players must sacrifice a speed/stamina mod to get better shield delay rates. When Caldaris see their rail rifles, and my gues is that they will be a little more fitting costly than the Gallente plasma rifle, we can expect more caldaris to trend away from the PG heavy kincats and toward either regulators or stamina mods.
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1255	Posted - 2013.08.27 20:12:00 - [4] - Quote Princeps Marcellus wrote: I'm confused about this, too. Out of curiosity, do you think you could tell us about the weapons that the races use, too? http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/ start there
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1256	Posted - 2013.08.27 20:33:00 - [5] - Quote Vespasian Andendare wrote: Princeps Marcellus wrote: I'm confused about this, too. Out of curiosity, do you think you could tell us about the weapons that the races use, too? Ben Hur (:P) has been doing a good job in this thread, but CCP has already sort of revealed the weapon strategy to us with Assault, Breach, Burst and Tactical. Assault is about higher rate of fire, higher damage close range. Breach is going to be a slower round but high damage at long range. Burst is going to be high accuracy, extremely high burst rof, and tactical will be high single damage shots and medium to medium-long ranges. We can already see these strategies reflected if we take the AR and its 4 variants together. The "regular" Assault Rifle is high damage, good rof at close-to-medium ranges, while the Burst variant fires a quick three-shots to one spot. The Tactical AR is great at delivering a high damage single round at medium to medium-long range and the Breach variant fires slower rof but higher damage individual rounds. Similarly, the Scrambler Rifle (Tactical theme for Amarr base) fires high damage, relatively accurate rounds at medium to medium long ranges, with of course there being the very-high-damage charged round. The Assault SCR is accurate and fully auto, mimicking the AR but firing at longer ranges. If you haven't had a chance to check this weapon out, you should. It feels very futuristic and awesome. People have said that the assault will be the primary gallente weapon, and tactical is effectively the scrambler rifle model, but really I'm not honestly sure if the racial ones fit that mold. I am just roughtly going off of what I know from the weapons devblog, and the little bit I know from Eve weapon systems. Minmatar short range weapons are flexible in how far out they can hit, but they don't hit the hardest at close ranges. Gallente weapons are probably the hardest hitting. Amarr has some of the hardest hitting longer range weapons with some of the better 'damage application'. Caldari weapons also hit hard at medium to long ranges.
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1257	Posted - 2013.08.27 21:19:00 - [6] - Quote You just can't expect things to work exactly like Eve. To have an armor tank that can sustain incoming fire at close range would be rather overpowered. Even shield tanks have to get out after taking heavy fire, but their regen rate lets them get into battle quickly. I think its fair that to get the same kind of regen on its armor as shield tanks get is to either have deployed reps, or rely on logistics, which ends up providing an even better repping speed. After all the gallente logistics is arguably the better logi-hull.
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1263	Posted - 2013.08.28 13:03:00 - [7] - Quote Vespasian Andendare wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: You just can't expect things to work exactly like Eve. To have an armor tank that can sustain incoming fire at close range would be rather overpowered. Even shield tanks have to get out after taking heavy fire, but their regen rate lets them get into battle quickly. I think its fair that to get the same kind of regen on its armor as shield tanks get is to either have deployed reps, or rely on logistics, which ends up providing an even better repping speed. After all the gallente logistics is arguably the better logi-hull. Oh, I don't. I expected some variation. I was moreso explaining racial philosophies in Eve, because there's many factors that go into how armor tanking vs shield tanking works for spaceships, but some posters here may not be aware of them. I was asking questions like "Well if Amarr are tanky and slow, how do we put damage on their target??" I just didn't expect that racial philosophies with respect to their innate qualities or "flavors" would go away. Honestly, the idea that Amarr are the best balanced shield/armor race made me do a double take. Caldari suddenly being fleet-footed had me scratching my head. Minmatar I think represent the best overall of their reflection of their Eve counterparts with their speed, but the inherent weakness that comes with it is questionable--but certainly understandable given that they'll avoid a lot of damage with speed--also questionable is their 5 shield prototype suits. I'm sure when the racial variants on weapons/suits are fleshed out, the total picture will begin to make more sense. Reading what you wrote about the racial qualities currently in Dust with relation to stamina, fittings, etc. cleared the picture up somewhat. Don't get me wrong: it's nice to approach Dust and learn "new" racial philosophies....it's just if you tell me Amarr are some shield loving, land lovers, then I'll call you a liar every time. :P Caldari metas in eve aren't known for being slow. They just aren't fast. I come from FW, so a lot of my experience is sub-battleship kinds of stuff, but still, a lot of what I've experienced with Caldari revolves around them being fast enough to kite whatever they are shooting at. The only reason caldari are toping the charts in speed is because so many caldari logis have their low slots they aren't utilizing well. I wouldn't be suprised that when caldari gets their magsec smg or bolt pistol (longest ranged sidearms) that we'll see a trend toward more sidearm use. As far as Amarr and shields, I really don't think that shields (and armor) in Eve and Dust can really be compared the same way. One reason is that typically buffer tanks in Eve normally fit resistance mods. Well there are no resistance mods in Dust for infantry at the moment, so I think the best armor resistance against explosive damage is a bit of a shield buffer. And like I've said before, a lot of times, with an armor or shield tank in Eve you see these buffer fits have 3, 4, or 5 shield eHP to 1 armor eHP. In Dust from what I've seen the 'tanking ratio' is safest when its closer to 2:1 or 1.5:1. HP compared to your reaction time is so small that you don't want to give your total tank anything much less than 90% effectiveness against the most damaging weapon.