Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
80
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Posted - 2013.08.27 12:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:
As far as what you guys actually posted;
One thing that I'm super super cautious about is what you mean when you say "Long Cooldowns" on active modules. As a vehicle dude, nothing would irk me more than to have the game pretty much tell me "Here, be useless for a couple minutes as you need to go hide for all your stuff to recharge." I can almost promise the common tactic would be to simple drive/fly around until your stuff went on cooldown, flee to a safe place, and then recall the vehicle and call a new one to shorten the cooldown, if it was anywhere near that long.
IMO, a "long cooldown" should never be anything more than 30-40s. The way I'd personally approach making active modules more situationally useful is making their affects more powerful, but active for only a shorter time, with a mediocre cooldown compared to making them active for a decent time with a mediocre effect, with a super long cooldown
This absolutely, I'm okay with the idea on paper but this advice should absolutely be heeded.
Nova Knife wrote:
Turrets having ammo is a wonderful thing as it prevents senseless spamming and makes accuracy more important. Awesome change here guys! I think there to be a way for ships to 'restock' their ammo without having to recall it and call another of the same vehicle. Maybe a built-in nanohive that is very slow, and disables turrets while refilling them, or something? I'm not sold on a "Bigger ammo bay module" or needing to hang out at a supply depot (Especially with dropships)
I like the idea because i think it opens up more possibilities for logistics focused vehicles, having the need for vehicles to rely on an outside party (ammo caches or ... potentially nanohives?) opens up the possibility for more team based interactions between other vehicles. I can easily imagine a situation where my LLAV taps a module and begins replenishing ammo for both my infantry and vehicle companions.
Nova Knife wrote:On the topic of roles and such, We've bugged Wolfman about this to no end, but I'll throw it here anyways : Logistics modules simply need to be turrets, instead of pilot controlled modules. The use of these modules currently ranges from simply impractical to use, to downright impossible to use, as you look at them on each vehicle. The only vehicle that can even use them with good practicality is an HAV, because they are the only vehicle where the aiming/LOS is not dictated by movement controls. You could spend weeks/months reworking these module systems and making their aiming & locking functionality much more practical, or you could transfer this function to a series of turrets, and eliminate all of the 'ease of use' concerns pretty much by the sheer viture of how turrets work compared to vehicle controls. The only concern not addressed here is the seriously lacking range of these modules, which could honestly use a pretty big buff.
Holy ****, god no. Please. No.
Bad CPM, bad.
I tried to explain to Hans in IRC why this idea (that is, the removal of driver controlled logistics modules and making them exclusively turret controlled) was a bad one and I see now that the idea continues to persist within the CPM. To be clear, I see nothing wrong with the idea of Logistics Turrets being added to vehicles. In fact I think the idea is a pretty compelling one, I can imagine Dropships being fitted with these types of turrets and being able to skillfully fly over a damaged target and having the "gunners" handling the repair of the vehicle. What I fear is though is that, as the driver, I would lose whatever capability I have to support my team in a meaningful way while chilling in the driver's seat as well. The idea of a logistics turret being added IN ADDITION to the current remote modules is an idea I can get behind, but I cannot support the outright replacement of driver controlled logistics modules as a solution.
I also understand that the current implementation of the lock-on and cooldown system of these modules is more than a little convoluted however when it works, it works quite well. The moment you make the Logistics capability in a Logistics vehicle completely dependent on a third party, and in this case, an EXTREMELY vulnerable turret gunner is the moment where you've severely limited the overall logistics capability of the vehicle. As of this point in the game I can fit both an armor and a shield remote module onto my Limbus and use this to support other vehicles on the field. If this capability is then translated into something that can only be achieved with a turret man then I've become less effective.
If this is something that you seriously want implemented in the game then I can only support it with the caveat that other driver controlled logistics modules would be implemented in its stead. I think the fact that Tanks and other vehicles are going to become far more reliant on ammo in order to continue to attack infantry opens up new opportunities in this way so pushing for the addition of something that turns vehicles into roaming nanohives is an obvious one for me.
Regarding your idea that the range of logistics modules should be increased (specifically the armor variant in particular) I fully agree. |
Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
Villore Accords
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 08:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
I didn't get around to fully responding to the original ideas but I want to say that I remain cautiously optimistic about these changes going into 1.5. It seems like 1.5 is going to represent something substantial to the game and you guys are taking the necessary steps to completely rebuild the notion of vehicles in Dust 514. I approve the dedication to this front.
On to specific comments about changes :
Quote:"Proper feedback so that itGÇÖs easier to understand what is happening (e.g. an HAV has activated shield hardeners) and how to counter it."
If this means we'll see the return of flashing disco vehicles then I'll most certainly raise my support for this. Having visual knowledge that my enemy or myself has activated one module or another was something that I was missing going into Uprising and I hope that with the return of it in 1.5 we've all differentiated between the style of effect for Hardeners vs. Reppers and potentially brought back the really neat bubble effect for active scanners.
Quote:
"Turrets will now have finite ammunition. Vehicle vs. vehicle combat generally boils down to two vehicles parked opposite one another firing until someone pops. This is not fun. Finite ammunition allows us to make turrets more powerful while preventing them from being a constant threat; spam a target and eventually you will run out of ammo."
While some may cry doom and gloom I see this as an opportunity to flesh out additional roles on the battlefield, mainly to finally give vehicles like the LLAV a more tangible and viable support route for assisting their team on the battlefield. To supplement potential Logistics "fuel stations" I think having knowledge about how much remaining ammo a friendly vehicle has left in its stores is going to be important knowledge to have if this role ever comes to be.
Beyond that I think maps may need to be altered a bit if a vehicle is going to take advantage of this change in any sort of meaningful way, there has to be a balance between accessible resupplying stations vs. the desire for a pilot to simply take his or her vehicle, recall it, and call it in again with maxed ammo supplies. I may infact support a situation where vehicles simply cannot replenish ammo supplies through this method but we'll see how it's handled on release. In the future I think this represents an exciting step forward for further fleshing out unique vehicle fits if one is available to buy different "types" of ammo, ammo types may vary based on their effectiveness vs. shields or armor or damage and I think that represents not only bringing the game closer to its EVE roots but further enriching the game itself.
Quote:
Once weGÇÖre confident weGÇÖve gotten the base balance right weGÇÖll start to add back in things weGÇÖve removed as well as introduce new elements to the mix. Pilot dropsuits, improved roles, increased infantry and vehicle interplay, and new turret types for a start.
You tease. Hopefully this means I can look forward to my amaarian large laser turrets in the future.
Pssst, here's a suggestion on what to model it off of : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOWNKGzU6TA
:P
Quote:
WeGÇÖre rebuilding everything with the idea that active modules will allow a vehicle to survive a single encounter, while passive modules increase its long-term surviveability across multiple encounters. Active modules will provide very significant bonuses, but once used their long recharge times leave a lone vehicle vulnerable to any follow-up attacks. Passive modules on the other hand provide permanent bonuses that are comparatively small. The breakdown is as follows:
Again, you guys really have to be careful with the notion of "ultra long cooldown" times when it comes to the introduction of these types of modules. The potential for people to game the system and simply recall and call in another vehicle is dangerous when considering the effectiveness of the modules you're trying to build.
Quote:
These are the modules that weGÇÖll be focusing on in our first-pass rebalance & Armor and Shield Differentiation
Bravo! These are some VERY ambitious changes and I for one am glad that you guys are really planning on making significant changes between the armor tank and shield tank gameplay. Couple this with the new focus on the power of active modules and I can totally see the amount of viable fits in game flourishing as a result. Exciting stuff for sure. Interesting to note is that you've basically flipped the current roles of armor and shield tanking, armor tanking as it is in game at the current moment is the "Instant, emergency use high HP restoration in the heat of battle" while Shield tanks are the high resistance and regen masters.
I'm going to be interested to see how regen on armor vehicles is going to compare to the regen we already see on shield based vehicles, no doubt you guys will keep all factors of shield and armor regen in mind while balancing.
Overall I'm ridiculously excited to see these changes being put in game, you guys have a little over a month to get this down right and though I fully expect there to be some bumps along the road with its release (expect the forums to be either completely rundown with "TANKS SUCK" or "AV UNDERPOWERED" ) I really hope you keep the original vehicle goals in mind before you react in one way or another. This is undoubtedly going to be one of the biggest patches we've seen since the transition to this style of updating and I am all steam ahead for the exploration of these features and future features put into game.
Great stuff Wolfman, Remnant, and anyone else involved in the vehicle rebalance department. Your work in fleshing out this role has been a long time coming.
o7 |