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Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
421
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Before you freak out like this is another end of the world post just take a minuite to hear me out.
this is an issue with design philosophy and how one pervasive issue can render a whole lot of work pointless.
The issue you ask? Rendering.
back in the beginnings of uprising we all noticed the new rendering "feature" that was built into the game with the goal of both reducing lag and improving the graphical effects throughout the game.
Now im not going to go through all the old blue posts about the issue as they are relativly easy to find if you put in a little effort, that is if you dont 1005 belive me when im talking about this topic. but rest assured this is a pretty well researched topic of mind and ive been looking into it for months now and watching the effects its had ont he game.
So what is this feature doing to the game?
well it IS decreasing lag and it did offer several ways to impove graphics (even though in some cases its just causing the game to lose immersion aka grass that pops up within 10m of you)
But its also having a LOT of other unintended side effects on gameplay.
When you change a complex system of mechanics in a game with a live playerbase it will ALWAYS self adjust to account for the slight changes, and it wont always do it in ways you expect simply because mechanics always have a far greater reach then you designed them to.
this is mostly due to the complex interaction between mechanics that comes into play in a vast game like this (and by vast i mean its not a simple card game with a 1 pg ruleset that can realistically be tested in a complete manner)
What effects is this having on gameplay?
well the first is that rendering isnt standardised, this means that every type of build has a different rendering distance based off what suit/vehicle it is, what gun its using, where on the map you are, and if your zooming in or not.
(may not be a complete list of variables but its the proven core mechanics)
this has the effect of creating a constant stream of circumstances where one player is able to see another, but the player he sees cannot see him back, rendering the first player "invisable" to the second.
now normally this wouldnt be a huge issue except when you take into account that under certain conditions the rendering distance is LESS then your weapons range, or when it is less than the range of the person shooting at you.
example 1
railgun turrets frequantly have the problem that while their range is 600ish meters, they can never actually see targets that far away, effectivly reducing the range of the railgun sometimes in extremes of less than 100m
example 2
a forge gunner currently renders vehicles from a range futher than that of the vehicles rendering distance.
aka a forge gunner can see and shoot a vehicle but the vehicle cannot see the forge gunner/swarm launcher
example 3
snipers currently have the problem of disaearing/reapearing targets and they are unable to use their full weapon range.
sniping has been reduced to Z fighting in a sniper war to see who can glitch render distance in their favor to kill off other snipers while remaining "invisible"
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Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
421
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 05:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
What does this have to do with 1.5?
Well in 1.5 has been set aside for vehicle re-balancing, but there is a problem with this.
currently the single biggest imbalance for any and all vehicles (and infantry AV) is the rendering problem.
in order to put it into perspective you have to think of the rendering problem as a built in feature.
aka tanks can only SEE so far and their weapons always seem to out range their vision. This has the effects of making vehicles "blind" to any and all smart AV players out there and even other tanks who have learned the ins and outs or the rendering "feature:
this issue is such a huge influence on vehicle balance that it creates the problem that it doesn't matter what numbers or mechanics you tweak in the game, vehicles balance will ALWAYS be driven by the rendering "feature" rather than the numbers of mechanics themselves.
meaning any change to vehicles numbers wise or mechanics wise is IRRELEVANT to the balance of vehicles in the reality of the game.
whats the solution?
rendering HAS to be standardized across the map on an equal plane for every player tot hat of a little higher distance than the longest firing weapon in the game.
this is because visual information in an FPS is the single most important element in a fight, and if you deny a unit that information then it doesn't matter what that unit can do it will always be less effective than a unit that can see more UNLESS it has been specifically balanced to purposely have that flaw as a weakness built into the unit.
currently rendering isn't being treated like a "feature" by the game developers, it isn't part of their balancing plan and so everything they do to balance the game will always be slightly off due to them not taking it into account.
Closing
1.5 will not fix vehicles, and as much as i love the idea that they are getting a little attention all this means is that its going to take that much longer for them to be fully balanced.
this problem effects everyone in the game it just hits vehicles the hardest because AV infantry have adapted to engaging vehicles outside their rendering vision.
this makes the AV players and their projectiles invisible to the people in vehicles, and this WILL ALWAYS be overpowered against them, and so unless you fix rendering, you cannot balance vehicles against AV
who am i?
Im Chances Ghost, a not so well known tanker from chromosome. i've done game design and testing as a hobby for near 14 years and while im not an expert on the subject ive worked on alot of projects over the years and have always strived to learn more from every game ive worked on.
this applys to every game ive ever played, i mess around, bug out mechanics, see to what extremes i can go, its just what i do and i love it. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training
EoN.
2101
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm not going to read this.
1.5 has had no patch notes for you to know what will be in it, no one knows the exact release date, and henceforth you can make no informed decisions concerning it. |
Exmaple Core
Ancient Exiles
921
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 05:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
rendering is a big part of the game and it really makes a difference for the players wallet. I still wanna see 1.5 but i do hope the fix this, it is important |
Charlotte O'Dell
0uter.Heaven
1079
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 05:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bump |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
421
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I'm not going to read this.
1.5 has had no patch notes for you to know what will be in it, no one knows the exact release date, and henceforth you can make no informed decisions concerning it.
rendering has been earmarked as a "non-issue" ccp is rather unconcerned about it. therefore its not going to apear in 1.5 we can be 99.9% sure of this since all blue posts indicate that im right
so with that in mind 1.5 is now pointless as an effort to balance, but its probably goign to add some useful thigns it certainly wont be able to "balance" unless its focued on the rendering problem.
it was worded like that as a way to grab attention and bring the issue at the front of things, as its remained a rather invisable problem for near 3 months now. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
DUST University
Ivy League
206
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I'm not going to read this.
1.5 has had no patch notes for you to know what will be in it, no one knows the exact release date, and henceforth you can make no informed decisions concerning it.
Idiot. What he's saying is that there is NO POINT making a balance pass with the rendering as bad as it is. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
421
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I'm not going to read this.
1.5 has had no patch notes for you to know what will be in it, no one knows the exact release date, and henceforth you can make no informed decisions concerning it. Idiot. What he's saying is that there is NO POINT making a balance pass with the rendering as bad as it is.
be nice, to be fair the title gives off a different impression than the actual topic does.
and he DOES have a point, its just that it his point doesnt render 1.5 worthwhile.
just politly ask him to read it and provide meaningfull feedback
no flaming in my thread |
DeadlyAztec11
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
1992
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I'm not going to read this.
1.5 has had no patch notes for you to know what will be in it, no one knows the exact release date, and henceforth you can make no informed decisions concerning it. Idiot. What he's saying is that there is NO POINT making a balance pass with the rendering as bad as it is.
Lorhak, eat a Snickers.
-Why?
You get a little grumpy when your hungry.
-OMNOMNOMNOM
Better?
-Better :) |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training
EoN.
2102
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 05:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Look, your request isn't reasonable. CCP knows what they want to do in 1.5, and they ARE GOING to do it, we all know CCP well enough that they will. It doesn't make sense to scrap a balancing-based patch in favor of a performance-based patch. They might make a separate patch around this issue later, or they may make it sooner, but they won't make it replace 1.5. For all you know, they have made changes to fix this problem. Hence, my original post about you knowing nothing about the content of 1.5. |
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Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
421
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Look, your request isn't reasonable. CCP knows what they want to do in 1.5, and they ARE GOING to do it, we all know CCP well enough that they will. It doesn't make sense to scrap a balancing-based patch in favor of a performance-based patch. They might make a separate patch around this issue later, or they may make it sooner, but they won't make it replace 1.5. For all you know, they have made changes to fix this problem. Hence, my original post about you knowing nothing about the content of 1.5.
listen, i know that in theory your correct.
in reality we DO know rendering fixes arnt in 1.5
this is mostly due to blue posts eluding to rendering being this way ON PURPOSE
the point is not really to scrap 1.5 but to illistrate that 1.5 is pointless and reblancing vehicles is a futile effort without an overhaul on the rendering problem.
i have no illusions about 1.5 being already set in stone. its code locked and ready to go, we wont see patch notes on it for another month and thats all well and good, nothing we can do about it.
that doesnt change the rendering problem, nore with 1.5 balance vehicles.
1.5 is essentially "the patch that changed nothing"
i get it, its done, its not changing from what it is.
what i am doing is bringing attention to the issue, simple as that.
now do you have anything to add about the topic at hand? any opinions on rendering and the problems/benifits?
any opinion on what can be achieved in 1.5 without fixing rendering?
any opinion whatsoever outside of "stfu 1.5 is done leave it alone?" |
calvin b
Molon Labe.
League of Infamy
362
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
As a sniper I approve this message. I exploit this weakness, how you ask? Cant tell you how but a hint is what I have. Use landmarks. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
422
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Posted - 2013.08.24 05:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
calvin b wrote:As a sniper I approve this message. I exploit this weakness, how you ask? Cant tell you how but a hint is what I have. Use landmarks.
no worries about a ban on this one to, its a legal exploit.
its "feature" status just renders this a game mechanic not a bannable exploit :P |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training
EoN.
2102
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 05:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't main tank, but I do tank on my alt. All I know is that 90% of my combat vs AV units is within my rendering distance. If I get shot by forges from far away, I run and hide. If I take damage from invisible swarms, I run and hide. I have a concept from my time spent close to AV units what should be balanced and what should be left alone. That 10% time spent running from ghosts does not effect my balancing concepts at all.
90% is enough time spent inside the rendering zone for CCP to either get everything right, or get just enough wrong for 1.5 to fail. So yea, 1.5 is set in stone and we can't do anything about it, but rendering did not likely make the balancing attempt faulty, and it certainly does not invalidate the entire 1.5 patch. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
422
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 05:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I don't main tank, but I do tank on my alt. All I know is that 90% of my combat vs AV units is within my rendering distance. If I get shot by forges from far away, I run and hide. If I take damage from invisible swarms, I run and hide. I have a concept from my time spent close to AV units what should be balanced and what should be left alone. That 10% time spent running from ghosts does not effect my balancing concepts at all.
90% is enough time spent inside the rendering zone for CCP to either get everything right, or get just enough wrong for 1.5 to fail. So yea, 1.5 is set in stone and we can't do anything about it, but rendering did not likely make the balancing attempt faulty, and it certainly does not invalidate the entire 1.5 patch.
was that so hard?
thank you for an actual post :P
in responce, 90% of my AV encounters are against idiots...
youc ant balance based off the worst players in your population, you have to balance on what the best players can do.
and the best players can wipe you off the map while invisable to everyone else free from relation and without an effective counter to the counter.
a smart 2 man AV crew taking advantage of rendering mechanics make vehicels useless on the battlefield and are without counter.
balancing off the bottom 90% is not an effective way to balance, you have to balance off the top 10%.
i learned this rule with trading card games, the bottom 90% play a completly different game than the top 10% and the top 10% play hard and the smallest imbalances are magnified to extremes to those 10%
it makes a HUGE difference in competitive play |
Asirius Medaius
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
283
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Posted - 2013.08.24 06:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Both as one of the top snipers of our Corporation, and one with a vehicle alt who has seen all sides of the battle (dropship, tank, lav, logi, etc.), and let me say that the rendering distance is singlehandedly the largest issue I have with this game that is not due to balancing, but rather to poor game construction.
If CCP were to take down their textures a peg or two, they could probably incorporate more people being loaded on the map due to the memory constraints of the PS3 (assuming that is the main issue); I would be open to this or another solution with the same objective in mind. I don't mind having max ranges on weapons (even if they seem less than realistic), but not being able to clearly see a person less than a kilometer away with a scope of any type (tank, sniper, etc.) and see where your being fired from is just ludicrous. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
424
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Posted - 2013.08.24 06:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
this issue has been completly glossed over by CCP, although i have no doubt in my mind they know it exsists i just dont think they know any way to fix it and so are downplaying it as much as possable hoping they can ignore it untill they can upgrade to ps4 rendering the issue fixed though hardware rather than coding.
we need a responce on this CCP |
Jade Hasegawa
Intrepidus XI
EoN.
57
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Posted - 2013.08.24 07:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I'm not going to read this.
1.5 has had no patch notes for you to know what will be in it, no one knows the exact release date, and henceforth you can make no informed decisions concerning it. rendering has been earmarked as a "non-issue" ccp is rather unconcerned about it. therefore its not going to apear in 1.5 we can be 99.9% sure of this since all blue posts indicate that im right so with that in mind 1.5 is now pointless as an effort to balance, but its probably goign to add some useful thigns it certainly wont be able to "balance" unless its focued on the rendering problem. it was worded like that as a way to grab attention and bring the issue at the front of things, as its remained a rather invisable problem for near 3 months now. if you wouldnt mind actually reading it to see what its about i would apreaciate it
The 1.4 patch notes made some comment about how they were reworking models for vehicles to reduce performance costs, therefore to me that means they are trying to stop them vanishing but I know what you mean, playing yesterday the enenmy eam was largely snipers so I broke out my rifle and engaged in a sniper duel, I killed 4 guys easy enough but the last guy I i tried to snipe I could not see at all, but he could hit me, the next thing I know the guy next to me drops the guy trying to snipe me, I asked him where this bloke was and was told "Lucky shot! my reticule dot turned red so I fired, couldn't actually see him" |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
427
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Posted - 2013.08.24 07:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
the meantion to rendering is only goign to effect the instances where the z axis causes somethign to go invisable no matter how close it is (vehicle users will all tell you they have had that magically turret installation disaear mere meters from their tank for no reason)
the intended rendering distance is very very different from the weapons overall range.
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demonkiller 12
Seraphim Auxiliaries
124
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Posted - 2013.08.24 08:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Am i the only that read in the 1.4 patch notes that theres going to be rendering fixes? |
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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
512
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Posted - 2013.08.24 08:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
1: 1.4 contains rendering fixes.
2: All we know about 1.5 is the big ticket item that one single team is doing. Seeing as balancing is NOT done by the technical art guys, it seems reasonable to assume that there will be further performance enhancements in 1.5.
In conclusion, STFU. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
430
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Posted - 2013.08.24 09:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
demonkiller 12 wrote:Am i the only that read in the 1.4 patch notes that theres going to be rendering fixes?
z axis rendering fixes that are causing the whole "that turret de-rendered 50m from me while i was shooting it for no explicable reason
not rendering distance has been noramlised between all units on the field rendering fixes
it will help with the rediculas cases but wont do anything to touch the problems at their core |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
430
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Posted - 2013.08.24 09:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ryder Azorria wrote:1: 1.4 contains rendering fixes.
2: All we know about 1.5 is the big ticket item that one single team is doing. Seeing as balancing is NOT done by the technical art guys, it seems reasonable to assume that there will be further performance enhancements in 1.5.
In conclusion, STFU.
the 1.5 patch doesnt adress rendering, as thats a compeltly different department then vehicle balance :P
but hey ignore this till 1.5 hits then come in here saying it will be 1.6 |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
512
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Posted - 2013.08.24 09:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
Moron, that's my point. Balancing is done by a different team than the technical stuff - therefore both can and probably will be in the same patch. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
431
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Posted - 2013.08.24 09:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ryder Azorria wrote:Moron, that's my point. Balancing is done by a different team than the technical stuff - therefore both can and probably will be in the same patch.
its not. but feel free come come back ehre in a month and try to tell me its going to be in 1.6
because people have been saying what your saying since 1.1 |
R F Gyro
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
472
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 09:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:the 1.5 patch doesnt adress rendering
Just out of interest, how do we know that?
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Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
434
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Posted - 2013.08.24 10:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:Chances Ghost wrote:the 1.5 patch doesnt adress rendering Just out of interest, how do we know that?
because it wasnt in 1.1/1.2/1.3/
and its not being discussed at any level even the bug report level
lastest word is its working as intended and they cant find any reprousable errors. (check weekly bug report updates stickyed int he bug report forums
according to them its working as intended.... so why would a fix be in ANY patch let alone 1.4? |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1030
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 11:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rendering wont get fixed
They too busy buffing OP swarms to super OP levels |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
740
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 13:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
It's an important point Chances Ghost and i'm glad you're keeping an eye on it.
I remember bringing it up myself in 1.1 and the eventual outcome of that was 'working as intended'.
I let it drop off my personal crusade list because i felt aiming, terrain, controls and passive in-match sp trumped rendering in terms of driving new players away from DUST.
But you are 100% right in your analysis, imo.
I've been exploiting rendering with swarms(when convenient or when i know the opponent is good), the goal being to get as many invisible volleys in the air once the vehicle has left cover and is going to need time to turn around to get back into cover. On the other hand, you might be invisible to the tank, but you'll prolly still be visible to snipers.
I'm convinced that the complaints we hear about the forge gun now stem directly from their rendering distance - forge gun sniping has been around a long time but you can see that the annoyance level has gone up a lot since 1.1
And it should be obvious to all concerned that at the upper levels of gameplay, which is the only environment in which effective, rational balancing can be done, exploiting rendering mechanics is the only responsible approach to the situation for teams. Every advantage must be maximized at the upper levels of competition. Is anybody using spotters yet?
If 1.4 is successful on the big issues, i think it's definitely time for rendering to get bumped way up the priority list.
My primary concerns re rendering are twofold.
1) Ofc these techniques will migrate quickly to pub matches. Getting sniped by invisible redline railguns is a great addition to the New Player Experience, right CCP? And as we all learn these techniques from our pioneers the battles become infected by an unintended mechanic that detracts from the gameplay.
2) Graphical improvements and various intertwined optimizations get built on top of the flawed rendering mechanics, and as time goes on making changes to the rendering becomes progressively more daunting. If memory serves the original implication was that this was something they CCP was going to 'try' to see how it worked. It looks to me like performance is being fine-tuned around these rendering assumptions.
But how much room does CCP have to move? The maps are big and many peeps were unhappy with the quality of the graphics before Uprising. There are still tweaks and optimizations left for CCP to benefit from, but will that compensate for expanding render distance to the point where it works as it should? |
KalOfTheRathi
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
592
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 02:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote: -- snip lots of preamble --
But how much room does CCP have to move? The maps are big and many peeps were unhappy with the quality of the graphics before Uprising. There are still tweaks and optimizations left for CCP to benefit from, but will that compensate for expanding render distance to the point where it works as it should? The basic issue with your position is CCP/Shanghai does not actually acknowledge the problem. They are unable to reproduce it. Thus it is not a problem and have stated that it appears to be a result of their draw distance optimization efforts.
CCP/Shanghai does not know how it should work. That is the basic problem at its most basic description. If they knew how it should work they never would have broken the game. The did break it. On purpose. Because the grass growing as we move was more important than game play.
We want to play the game. They want to show off pretty, pretty things.
That situation is very clear when the friendly tank is ashes and nobody knows where the swarms came from. Yet CCP/Shanghai has yet to experience the problem. Please, explain how they never have and we always do. Because it is a mystery to me as I walk back to the battle.
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