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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
355
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Posted - 2013.08.26 12:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:and also be able to lock 2 targets at once, another 2 buffs Although I don't agree with most of his ideas, the one about locking 2 targets already exists, he jjust wanted it to lock the same target twice for some strange reason ... it isn't used at all because I for one have never found out (or really tried to) how you would go about launching missiles to the locked target you want it to go to, is it just random, who knows, who cares it's a pretty useless variation on swarms to be honest. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
355
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 12:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
I actually came here to quote this from another thread ...
Needless Sacermendor wrote:Our Deepest Regret wrote:I dunno, it just seems like the crux of the problem stems from Tanks having infinite ammunition. That's the most obvious reason they dominated so hard back in the dark ages. If Blaster tanks were penalized for their killing power by having to constantly resupply, there would never have been a need for AV grenades or overpowered swarm launchers.
Vehicle ammunition supply points would bring some much needed strategy to the tanking role, beyond the universally reviled "Park on a spawn point and squeeze the trigger" or the equally hated "run away when an av sneezes on you." High defense, limited ammo is the way to go. Take away easy gibs on both sides for god's sake. This would go a long way to solving the problem of HAVs dominating where no AV exists, AND the problem of HAVs destroying Supply Depots that are easily being overun by blue infantry ready to hack and supply themselves with hives and switch from their AV fit they no longer need as there are 3 blue HAVs on the field (happened last night so I made it my purpose to deny them the CRU kills by hacking them early before the red dots were killed, lets face it, I couldn't switch to my AR and be useful cos they blew the Supply Depot we had secured already.) If HAVs needed the supply depots as much as infantry did, we might see more balanced fights between nonAV skilled infantry and HAVs, if they could control the Supply Depots denying the enemy HAVs of ammunition would be a valid tactic. Obviously maps would need to be adjusted to account for vehicles dependancy and you could even incorporate vehicle ammo supply modules for logistics LAVs n dropships etc. ... give them a purpose too. discuss ... |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
355
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 12:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Needless Sacermendor wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:and also be able to lock 2 targets at once, another 2 buffs Although I don't agree with most of his ideas, the one about locking 2 targets already exists, he jjust wanted it to lock the same target twice for some strange reason ... it isn't used at all because I for one have never found out (or really tried to) how you would go about launching missiles to the locked target you want it to go to, is it just random, who knows, who cares it's a pretty useless variation on swarms to be honest. Yea thats the assault version, he prob wants it for his wyrkomis so it fires 12missiles 6 at each but it doesn't fire at both targets, only 1, it just locks 2 targets, but which one it fires at is anyones guess.
Edited ... forget that anyway ... I'd be interested in your opinion on the ammo suggestions above, since you're so vocal in all AV/vehicle threads. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
355
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 12:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Needless Sacermendor wrote:I actually came here to quote this from another thread ... Needless Sacermendor wrote:Our Deepest Regret wrote:I dunno, it just seems like the crux of the problem stems from Tanks having infinite ammunition. That's the most obvious reason they dominated so hard back in the dark ages. If Blaster tanks were penalized for their killing power by having to constantly resupply, there would never have been a need for AV grenades or overpowered swarm launchers.
Vehicle ammunition supply points would bring some much needed strategy to the tanking role, beyond the universally reviled "Park on a spawn point and squeeze the trigger" or the equally hated "run away when an av sneezes on you." High defense, limited ammo is the way to go. Take away easy gibs on both sides for god's sake. This would go a long way to solving the problem of HAVs dominating where no AV exists, AND the problem of HAVs destroying Supply Depots that are easily being overun by blue infantry ready to hack and supply themselves with hives and switch from their AV fit they no longer need as there are 3 blue HAVs on the field (happened last night so I made it my purpose to deny them the CRU kills by hacking them early before the red dots were killed, lets face it, I couldn't switch to my AR and be useful cos they blew the Supply Depot we had secured already.) If HAVs needed the supply depots as much as infantry did, we might see more balanced fights between nonAV skilled infantry and HAVs, if they could control the Supply Depots denying the enemy HAVs of ammunition would be a valid tactic. Obviously maps would need to be adjusted to account for vehicles dependancy and you could even incorporate vehicle ammo supply modules for logistics LAVs n dropships etc. ... give them a purpose too. discuss ... What about diff types of ammo to begin with? explosive, thermal, kinetic and EM we dont have them What about the cargohold for all vehicles so i can stock up on 100k of ammo for the large turret and leave 0 ammo for the small, do i get skills to increase my cargohold? if no cargohold then depots would have to be moved so vehicles can access it, if we need a special nanohive then that needs to be made but also means we need a logi to carry it What about vehicle locks? i dont want johnny bluedots wasting the ammo he hasnt paid for What about not putting turrets on a vehicle? why should i have to, if i want no small turrets that should be my choice not an invalid vehicle, i can do this in EVE if i want to why not DUST? What about clip sizes? what would they be? What about overheating? FG dont have overheating because they have clips so if that happened to railguns then overheating wouldnt be a problem and also we lose some active and passive heat sinks because they are not needed What about skills? if the turrets have clips and reloading do we have skills like the small arms have where we can increase ammo stored, or more ammo in the clip and faster reloading What about infantry easily swapping from tryhard fit to AV fit in a second at a depot? a vehicle can not hand around an enemy depot because lolAVnades from behind it so we whack it If these cannot be answered then no, tbh i want the vast majority of it to be sorted out 1st, i need to be able to control my vehicle, control who gets in it or not, how i can fit it up and not be told it needs to be fitted up like this Sorry but that's about what I expected from you ... a long list of "What abouts".
I'll make it simple for you ... answer me one question ... Should vehicles have limited ammo ? ... the whys and wherefores can be ironed out in the implementation of it, but it's a very simple question ... Yes or No ? |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
355
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 12:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
If you really want me to disect your post here goes ...
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:What about diff types of ammo to begin with? explosive, thermal, kinetic and EM we dont have them - No we don't have EM swarm launcher ammo either, it's irrelavant to the idea
What about the cargohold for all vehicles so i can stock up on 100k of ammo for the large turret and leave 0 ammo for the small, do i get skills to increase my cargohold? if no cargohold then depots would have to be moved so vehicles can access it, if we need a special nanohive then that needs to be made but also means we need a logi to carry it - no, I can't stock up on swarms and leave out sidearm ammo so why should vehicles be different ... they would have an ammo limit per turret like handheld weapons have, not in a cargohold but in a magazine like modern tanks have, why not have skills to increase them, I did say maps need adjusting and I did mention ammo supply modules for logistics vehicles could be introduced
What about vehicle locks? i dont want johnny bluedots wasting the ammo he hasnt paid for - Infantry don't pay for ammo, why would vehicles
What about not putting turrets on a vehicle? why should i have to, if i want no small turrets that should be my choice not an invalid vehicle, i can do this in EVE if i want to why not DUST? - irrelavant to requiring ammo for the turrets you do fit, but I agree fittings should be customizable how you want them, why should dropsuits be required to carry a light weapon to be valid
What about clip sizes? what would they be? - they would be balanced
What about overheating? FG dont have overheating because they have clips so if that happened to railguns then overheating wouldnt be a problem and also we lose some active and passive heat sinks because they are not needed - a valid point to be addressed in the implementation, doesn't affecty whether it should be implemented or not
What about skills? if the turrets have clips and reloading do we have skills like the small arms have where we can increase ammo stored, or more ammo in the clip and faster reloading - as you already asked above, I'll ignore this duplicate question
What about infantry easily swapping from tryhard fit to AV fit in a second at a depot? a vehicle can not hand around an enemy depot because lolAVnades from behind it so we whack it - my mention of that was in relation to a supply depot that we had already overun and were hacking, the HAVs were just after the easy wp and not thinking about the team wanted to lose the AV fits they didn't need anymore with so many HAVs on our side, they'd think twice if they were at all reliant on these structures
If these cannot be answered then no, tbh i want the vast majority of it to be sorted out 1st, i need to be able to control my vehicle, control who gets in it or not, how i can fit it up and not be told it needs to be fitted up like this - they've all been answered now, tbh we should be discussing ideas like this well before 1.5 is set in stone so they can consider all options to make this game fun for everyone, vehicle, AV and infantry alike, yes we've said since more than a year ago that vehicles need control over who jumps in and I agree there shouldn't be false restrictions on how you fit things, but dropping 2 small turrets to fit a large turret with unlimited ammo and all the tank you can manage to be indistructible isn't going to be good for the game, it will have to have some restrictions put on it such as limited ammo. You generally have a Supply Depot in you redline it just means you'd be forced out of the battle for a period rather than sitting there with your finger on the trigger till AV shows up.
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Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
355
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Posted - 2013.08.26 14:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
You really have no reading comprehension do you !?
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:No you havnt answered them, you have guessed, how would we know they would be in? - How would we know what would be in ? AND Yes I have answered EVERY question in a way that could be implemented in the game, I haven't guessed ANYTHING I've made suggestions as to how it could work
Its not irrelevent its needed overall - as is ammo types for handheld weapons ... it's still irrelevant to the idea of vehicles having ammo restraints, your missiles will still be armor effective and rails against shields
Why should vehicles have an ammo limit? its a vehicle, a tank is massive compared to the goobags so i should be able to carry 10 times the amount if not more, also large turrets carry larger shells - you answered your own question there, "large turrets carry larger shells" therefore taking up more space in your magazine, railguns and missiles would have smaller magazines than blaster turrets
So no vehicle locks so johnny bluetard can waste my ammo anyways, i dont want him in the tank full stop, this is an issue - who said no vehicle locks ? ... "yes we've said since more than a year ago that vehicles need control over who jumps in" was what I said
Being able to have no turrets means no bluedots firing my turrets and letting ppl know where i am, also it would mean he cant waste my turret ammo if i choose to have turrets but again it means i have no control over my tank - how would a gunner waste your turret ammo if each turret had it's own ammo magazine, in the same way each infantry weapon has it's own magazine, if I run out of smg bullets I still have swarms, if you ran out of small blaster turret ammo on the front gun, the top gun would still have it's magazine and the large gun would have it's ammo, the rest of this line I refer you above to the vehicle locks.
They would be balanced, lolno look at 1.4 4 buffs to swarms - how does that affect future balance of something that's not even implemented, you're good at these irrelevant arguments aren't you
So because its a vehicle overheating is still allowed, the only way i would allow overheating to stay in with clip sizes if it means i can do what it does in EVE ie it overheats the turret but fires faster but also to repair the turret i need nanite paste unless the damage effects the whole vehicle which it shouldnt - who said that ! ... I said it's a valid point that needs to be considered in balancing it, maybe overheat is removed, or maybe it's balanced in the same way HMG, Lazer Rifles, Scrambler Rifles are all balanced with ammo and overheats in mind
If turrets have clips and reloading times we need skills to be able to reduce it, dont give be BS answer its our primary weapon like an AR is to infantry yet they can use skills but lol its a vehicle so you cant so it fair - here we go again, arguing against statements I haven't made, I don't know why I bother ... YES SKILLS WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA !!! ... is that clear enough for you to comprehend ?
No mention of putting supply depots where we can reach them, also no mention of stopping the swaps at depots from an AR fit to AV fit, that alone makes us destroy them because they hide behind them - Yes there was mention of maps needing to be altered, and why would you stop infantry changing fits at a supply depot, what would make you think twice about destroying them would be if you gained something from having them, I don't know, like supplying yourself with ammo !
They havnt been answered, they have half arsed answers of have been ignored, not all redlines have supply depots either and if you think dropping 2 small makes a tank invicible then your are so wrong, taking off all 3 turrets makes it a damn good strong tank but with no offensive capabilitys whatsoever so i dont see the problem - they all have answers you just have trouble reading them, they're all there I promise you ... I'm having trouble understanding "they have half arsed answers of have been ignored" if you could rearrange those words into a sentence for me ... not all red lines have supply depots NO, not all maps have redlines either, but as above, maps would need to be looked at again with this in mind ... and I ment it shouldn't be possible to make an invincible one man HAV by removing secondary turrets, but it should be possible to remove them in favor of a higher tanking ability
All you seem to want is to sort out ammo but dont fix any of the problems that ive brought up so effectively trying to nerf vehicles and force teamwork where currently AV doesnt have to use teamwork and still get buffs - So tell me exactly which problem I haven't fixed, other than the overheat which I said would need balancing with ammo in the same way HMG, Lazer, Scrambler all do. AV has to use teamwork to survive against other infantry unless it's AV grenades which are just wrong and Forges which lose next to no anti-infantry ability aswell other than their slow movement which is compensated with higher base hp ... and how is limiting ammo forcing teamwork out of vehicles, infantry don't need teamwork to run to a supply depot for ammo, nor would vehicles |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
355
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 14:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
As I said, reading comprehension isn't your strong point is it, this is why you're arguing against points I haven't even made.
This is why vehicles are being overhauled in 1.5 ... I bet you get a lot of the things you want like the ability to kick people, you already have a lock timer when a vehicle is dropped so only the owner can get in for so many seconds, why do you need a cargohold when there is no cargo to carry ? all you need is a magazine for ammo, the same as any handheld weapon has. Supply Depots can be placed anywhere with very little dev effort and vehicles operating without turrets is an easy modification when they're "overhauling vehicles" in 1.5.
Also Matchmaking is coming in 1.4 which will go a long way to addressing the "2 groups of 6 murdering randoms" problem you mentioned and guess what ... "overhauling vehicles" in 1.5 most likely means the return of the Sagaris and Surya since that's a MAJOR sticking point in the AV/vehicle balance right now.
So what you're saying is ... as long as they get these things right when they overhaul vehicles in 1.5 ... you don't object to limiting ammo in this way ?
I think we have a breakthrough people ! |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
356
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 15:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
The problem with HAVs is they are a self perpetuating problem ... they are too damn good at killing infantry when there is no skilled AV ... hopefully matchmaking will consider this and not put vehicle specialists into matches without AV specialists of similar skill to make a fair battle with an equal chance of the AV winning or the vehicles winning.
But the fact that HAVs can decimate infantry without pausing is what causes people to invest into a counter, whether it be breeding more HAV specialists or people investing into some form of AV ... so you end up with every medium frame user having advanced swarms, every heavy using having a forge, even scouts making sure they have some proto grenades, just in case ... plus you get more vehicles being fielded.
The conclusion is a messy one where you can't field a vehicle without there being considerable AV options against you, and Supply Depots aside, it only takes one death to spawn in with you AV fit ... if I'm running cheap suits I sometimes run at enemies with my injector out if it's taking too long to die and I've no other way to get my AV fit out ! |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
357
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 15:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Needless Sacermendor wrote:The problem with HAVs is they are a self perpetuating problem ... they are too damn good at killing infantry when there is no skilled AV ... hopefully matchmaking will consider this and not put vehicle specialists into matches without AV specialists of similar skill to make a fair battle with an equal chance of the AV winning or the vehicles winning.
But the fact that HAVs can decimate infantry without pausing is what causes people to invest into a counter, whether it be breeding more HAV specialists or people investing into some form of AV ... so you end up with every medium frame user having advanced swarms, every heavy using having a forge, even scouts making sure they have some proto grenades, just in case ... plus you get more vehicles being fielded.
The conclusion is a messy one where you can't field a vehicle without there being considerable AV options against you, and Supply Depots aside, it only takes one death to spawn in with you AV fit ... if I'm running cheap suits I sometimes run at enemies with my injector out if it's taking too long to die and I've no other way to get my AV fit out !
Implementing ammo in vehicles would go a long way to limiting their ability to sit and massacre infantry which is what leads to AV not being a specialisation but being a necessity ... I don't want everyone carrying swarm launchers or AV grenades (which should be removed) ... killing vehicles is what I SPECIALISED into. Having an advanced assault rifle was a necessity for those matches with no vehicles in, which are now non existent because of the above point. Then its working tbh, if its blaster fit and no AV to counter it then of course its going to win Matchmaking i hope it means basic vehicle vs basic AV Yes, but it shouldn't be able to just sit there firing for the entire match, it should be required some downtime by a need to resupply ammo or allow capacitors to recharge or something to stop it from just sitting there firing with a few seconds pause if you're daft enough to run into overheat on the turret.
Yes hopefully it will be able to distinguish people who are heavily invested in AV and balance them in battles against people similarly invested into vehicles ... I don't want to OHK Sicas n Somas with my proto swarms ... I want a challenge. |
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