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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1199
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Posted - 2013.08.23 21:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
When Uprising 1.4 comes out there will be a better balance between shields vs armor unfortunately it will still not be complete. The balance still hasn't hit the sweet spot. The next big problem with armor is repair, because there is no passive armor repair every suit, specially armor suits, are forced to sacrifice their tank for miniscule armor repairs. Now this make sense in paper since armor has repair tools and triage nanohives but not only are those not used enough, their repair is not high enough to be dependable except the core focused repair tool, but that thing is in a league of its own. Not only that but because we are forced to use armor repairers a shield suit actually gets the same tank as an armor suit, but more speed, and overall repair even if both are dual tanked, or pure tanked.
Dual tanked Caldari suits have way more survivability than a pure tanked armor suit without suffering the penalties of either shield or armor tanking, and the difference between a pure tanked armor suit and a pure tanked shield suit in HP is miniscule, due to resistances, aside from a 7% speed difference, and 1718 HP repair to the shields main tank in 60 second vs 375 HP repaired to the armor suits main tank in 60 seconds.
In order to increase the survivability of the armor suit to where it should be, all suits (not just the armor suits) should get a passive repair to armor.
A/L/S/H/C = Assault/Logistics/Scout/Heavy/Commando
Caldari A/L/S - 1/3 Minmatar A/L/S - 3/5/7 Gallente A/L/S - 8/10/12 Amarr A/L/H/C - 7/9/7/8
This is what I believe to be the proper order of how a passive armor repair should be added. Now this might look like a lot but if you do the math the Caldari suit still repairs its main tank way faster than a Armor suit, now you might say that shields cannot repair under fire but because armor repair is so low even at 12 HP/s it basically cannot repair under fire either since it is so easily out DPSed. Out of fire a Caldari Assault suit can repair 1787 shields and 60 HP to armor, while a Gallente suit will repair 1325 shields and 480 HP to armor. This would leave armor repairers, and rechargers, as secondary modules to enhance the repair of suits not add it. The way armor repair currently works is similar to CCP removing shield repairs and forcing rechargers to be used in order to have it.
If the 1.5 shield penalty is added along with this it would make pure tanking more effective than dual tanking. A dual tanked suit would suffer from low armor and shield repair since all upgrades to repair would be in the lows. A pure shield tanked suit would get more usefulness out of rechargers in order to compensate for lost shield repair and supercede the vanilla repair, and a pure tanked armor suit would be less inclined to use shield extenders since the passive shield repair is already very low.
If of course you want to bring the repair tool,triage hives, and injectors into the equation I have suggested and highly believe that they all should reset the shield repair delay timer so that shields automatically start repairing under their influence.
Lastly the bonus to shield repair for the assault suits should be removed and replaced with 2-3% light weapon damage and the level 5 old upgraded added to the dropsuits themselves, so by default Caldari assaults suits will repair shields at 31.25 etc, the Logistics role bonus should also be removed and replaced with the Gallente role bonus, and the Gallente role bonus replaced with something else, and the numbers posted above added to the default logistics suits.
Pros and Cons:
Pros- *Pure armor tanking is viable *Armor repairers are now optional like rechargers *Triage tools would still be necessary since even an armor repair of 10 is not enough to repair as fast as shields meaning shields would still remain the frontline/skirmish modules. *Freeing up that low slot for armor repair allows for other options like dampeners, CPU/PG enhancers etc for armor tankers, currently those are most useful for shield suits and they get the most benefit out of them. Field variety increased *Every suit benefits from this. *More armor HP to every suit not just Armor suits since most suits equip at least one armor repairer.
Cons- *Dual tanking would no longer be very effective if the 1.5 penalty is added. *Slower armor suits since they can now stack 4-5 armor plates instead of 3-4 (Con and a Pro)
If you see any problems with the implications of this please feel free to comment in a constructive manner.
TL;DR
Title. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1203
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Posted - 2013.08.23 23:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tal-Rakken wrote:Your forgetting triage hives easy 220 rep per cycle.
Although I do kinda like my unique 1hp/s armor regen on my minny assault.
220 or 22? Isn't a cycle every second. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1204
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Posted - 2013.08.24 01:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I completely agree with this, however I do think that if armor reps are going to be different on a class by class basis then shield regen should also be different on a class by class basis.
Well technically they already are, Caldaris have a higher and faster regen while Gallente have a lower and slower regen. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1204
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 01:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I completely agree with this, however I do think that if armor reps are going to be different on a class by class basis then shield regen should also be different on a class by class basis. Well technically they already are, Caldaris have a higher and faster regen while Caldari have a lower and slower regen. i guess i meant on a race by race basis sorry lol. I do agree on the class basis too which the assault bonus has already taken care of (but I think should be changed and having the base regen buffed to match)
Look I wrote Caldari Caldari lol
Anywho, what do you mean Quote:(but I think should be changed and having the base regen buffed to match) |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1204
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 01:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:What is the gallente shield regen? Is it not the same 20 as caldaris have?
I mean the the assault bonus should be changed to something better and the base regen should be equal to what is it now with assault 5.
Gallente assault is 25 and Gallente logistics is 15, Caldari assault is 31.25 and Caldari Logistics is 20.
Also what you is already on my OP
Quote:Lastly the bonus to shield repair for the assault suits should be removed and replaced with 2-3% light weapon damage and the level 5 old upgraded added to the dropsuits themselves, so by default Caldari assaults suits will repair shields at 31.25 etc, the Logistics role bonus should also be removed and replaced with the Gallente role bonus, and the Gallente role bonus replaced with something else, and the numbers posted above added to the default logistics suits.
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1208
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Posted - 2013.08.24 02:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Passive Armor Rep is BAD.
It makes the usage of Armor Reps obsolete.
Why Skill into Armor reps when you don't need them?
To get a faster recharge, at the cost of 150 HP?
They'd be like Shield Rechargers. Sure probably SOMEONE uses them, but they are useless due to the fact that shields recharge naturally.
Sure, SOMEONE might use them after they implement this, but why? You can get WAY more Buffer, by using those slots for Plates, and you still recharge!
-1. Making a type of mods completely pointless is bad design. Point in case, Rechargers. The Reps are a part of the Armor Tanking lifestyle. If the 1.5 Penalty is introduced, which I hope it is, then Shield and Armor Tanks will need the same amount of Skills to be fully effective. Tada.
EDIT- Or, if you do this, Make Plates give similar HP bonuses to extenders.
Not necessarily since the repair is not high enough to sustain an armor suit for a long time, for example to fully repair a Gallente Assault with 4 enhanced armor plates with a would take 1 minute 40 seconds with a passive repair of 8, vs a shield suit taking which would repair fully in less than 30 seconds. Adding a armor repairer to that suit loses 135 armor but your armor can repair fully in 47 seconds so its still very beneficial to use armor repairers. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1212
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Posted - 2013.08.24 11:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tal-Rakken wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Tal-Rakken wrote:Your forgetting triage hives easy 220 rep per cycle.
Although I do kinda like my unique 1hp/s armor regen on my minny assault. 220 or 22? Isn't a cycle every second. i said per cycle as your not neccesarily the one getting the reps each cycle if theres a crowd of people, as for the 220, thats the 2 repping nanohives that arent the compact both can drop 2: k17/D nanohive 2 max active reps 20hp per cycle = 40 Allotek Nanohive 2 max active reps 40hp per cycle = 80 Wirykomi Triage Nanohive 2 max activbe reps 70hp per cycle = 140 so just the proto ones your looking at 220 per cycle with the k17 your looking at 260 per cycle per logistics suit. just try breaking a proto heavy sitting in the big blue bubbles especially after the 1.4 buffs.
Flux grenade and a Mass Driver. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1213
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 11:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Passive Armor Rep is BAD.
It makes the usage of Armor Reps obsolete.
Why Skill into Armor reps when you don't need them?
To get a faster recharge, at the cost of 150 HP?
They'd be like Shield Rechargers. Sure probably SOMEONE uses them, but they are useless due to the fact that shields recharge naturally.
Sure, SOMEONE might use them after they implement this, but why? You can get WAY more Buffer, by using those slots for Plates, and you still recharge!
-1. Making a type of mods completely pointless is bad design. Point in case, Rechargers. The Reps are a part of the Armor Tanking lifestyle. If the 1.5 Penalty is introduced, which I hope it is, then Shield and Armor Tanks will need the same amount of Skills to be fully effective. Tada.
EDIT- Or, if you do this, Make Plates give similar HP bonuses to extenders. Not necessarily since the repair is not high enough to sustain an armor suit for a long time, for example to fully repair a Gallente Assault with 4 enhanced armor plates with a would take 1 minute 40 seconds with a passive repair of 8, vs a shield suit taking which would repair fully in less than 30 seconds. Adding a armor repairer to that suit loses 135 armor but your armor can repair fully in 47 seconds so its still very beneficial to use armor repairers. Yes, but do you think that it would even be worth it? Survive longer under fire, or rep back health in 47 seconds..... Live to rep slowly..... Or Die, and have that rep mean nothing, when you could have fit more Plates.... This wouldn't fix the issue of Dual Tanking, and it would just make ANOTHER mod useless. Armor Reppers could be tacked on to the other Mods that have no real purpose, like...... Profile Dampners Melee Mods Precision Enhancers Long Range Scanners Shield Regulators Shield Rechargers Cardiac Regulators Sidearm Damage Mods Its the first thing on your pro list. Makes Pure Armor Viable. Compared to Pure Shield, it is, but due to EVERYBODY dual tanking, due to it being completely and utterly better, all this is for moot. Eliminate Dual Tanking=All the Tanking Styles are Viable. Passive Armor rep=OP Armor Suits I say it will make Armor suits OP, as like I said, it really doesn't matter of you Rep in 1 minute thirty, or 47 seconds, cause if survive the fight, you win. Technically, if you compare Pure Armor To Pure Shield, Armor Has way more HP, and Way more damage output, due to open highs. Its only cause Pure Armor Versus Dual, is really one-sided. I have a huge Buffer that regens quite fast, and a mega-huge buffer that regens slow. Right now, after 1.4, 4 Enhance Plates (as one Slot is taken by Repper, Versus 5 Comp Extenders, makes it..... Armor Gets 460 More HP, going Pure Armor.... Shield gets 330 going Pure Shield.... Both Combined equals (Assuming a Gal Suit, which I think is 4 Highs, 5 lows at Proto)..... 724. Now, We can all see the main outlier in this equation. So, if we calculate that this is done, that leaves Armor at.... 575. Much higher then shield, Much less the Dual. tl;dr, As Blacks OP says, its the Dual tanking Caldari Suits that are throwing the balance of Shield and armor off. After 1.4, leave Armor alone, and give Shields their GD penalty. (Strange, I'm a Shield Tanker, and I want them to be worse ) Dual tanking will be Much Less Viable, but if necessary, Give the Pure Armor Tankers a Mod to counteract their Penalty. I think that Dual tanking will always be here, but making their life as much of a hell as possible is very good.
Well what I see coming out of the 1.5 penalty update is more armor tankers, consequently more Mass Drivers also, since what I see constantly is that people assume 500 shields = 500 armor when the reality is that shields are around 25% more resistant to damage than armor.
Also the Gallente suit is 3/4 assault and 3/5 logistics. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1214
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 12:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Text Grant wrote:Caldari A/L/S - 1/3 Minmatar A/L/S - 3/5/7 Gallente A/L/S - 8/10/12 Amarr A/L/H/C - 7/9/7/8
This is a no. Gallente should have the highest but Minmatar should be second. Amarr is supposed to be huge buffer. Gallente is repair.
Minmatar have a slot layout favoring shield tanking, the Logistics suits seems to favor dual tanking so its total repair is the same as the Gallente logistics. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1214
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 12:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
gargantuise aaron wrote:This is o.p. for armor, also mimnatar is the naturally regen guy so yeah I do not support this
How is it OP. |
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1214
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Posted - 2013.08.24 13:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
gargantuise aaron wrote:Also with thid you could easily get like 25-30. Rep per second even while being shot so your essentially negating 25 dps
Highest possible would be around 25-30 but at the cost of your tank therefore the DPS being negated wouldnt matter since even a fly touching you would kill you. Not only that but a passive repair as high as 30 is on average a 5% damage reduction at the cost of upwards of 50% of your HP. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1214
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 13:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
gargantuise aaron wrote:Its actually a bit more than 30 due go efficiency bonus, and you be neggating so much damage ypu wouldn't need health 37 dps is now 7 dps and when they reload you've already gained 60+ healthy back
No that is with efficacy bonuses, unless your thinking of using 4 repairers in 4 low slots but that would cap out your PG, the max that can be used without ruining your CPU/PG is 2 for Assault and 3 for logistics. Also no gun does 37 DPS all guns do upwards of 400+ DPS or have very high damage per shot. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1214
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Posted - 2013.08.24 13:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
DB post |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1221
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Posted - 2013.08.24 17:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bump |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1221
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Posted - 2013.08.24 18:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Arc-08 wrote:i dunno. i really like this idea, but some of those numbers are still a little high. i don't think any of the shield based suits (exept for logi) should get more than 2 armor repair a second, and maybe even the logi no more than 5. because they already have shields that regen, and armor is just a backup
also even some of the ones for the gallente suits where pretty high, and need to be lowered just a tad.
oh and CCP already beat you to this, i don't know if you noticed but Minmatar Assault already has 1 HP/S armor repair on it XD i love me ma 1 hp/s, it has never saved my lilfe once... but it does allow me to go hide in a building alone and contemplate my life while my 135 armor slowly slowly regains from the 10 that it was at. then in 2-3 minutes i'm good to get back into the battle for a couple of seconds!
Well the Minmatar is shield based but its shield repair is low, so that's why it has a higher repair although the repair only exceeds the Caldari Assault and Logistics by 2. As for the Gallente the repair is high but not higher than what a shield suit can repair, for example a shield suit can repair upwards of 1500-1700 HP in 60 seconds while an armor suit with this bonus upwards of 400-600 in 60 seconds. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1223
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Posted - 2013.08.25 12:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bewmp |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1235
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Posted - 2013.08.26 10:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:This gets a no from me.
First off, dual tanking is its own beast and is easy for Armor AND shields if your talking about true dual tanking and not the use of a single mod. Remove Ferros if you want to they do nothing for armor tankers.
Second, the repair rates for both are very comparable. Armor will have the advantage in short 15 secs or less fights due to the shield delay. You assuming 60 secs is the fault of your argument as no firefight lasts 60 seconds. If your talking 1v1 then one of you is dead by this point. Shields will have the advantage in between skirmishes until armor whips out the triage hives or rep tool where they then have the advantage.
One thing you must remember is that armor tankers have their shields up front acting as buffer resistance and quick regen. It may only be your base shields but 100hp+ will help a lot in short fights (which most fights are). Shields have no passive armor regen unless logi and get little resistance buffer from it.
There is no big resistance difference between shields and armor...seriously none. If you think explosive weapons are so powerful (they are supposed to be 120% to armor) then imagine shields facing a laser (120% to shields) which do similar damage but have about 5x the range. There are more viable lasers then there is viable explosive weapons.
Gal Logis will be more powerful than Cal Logis just from the bonus as there rep rate will be 17.5 vs Cal 20 assuming 2 reppers. If you want passive armor regen go Logi. Don't bring that into the other suits.
Actually armor suits cant dual tank effectively because of their low shield repair and overall necessity of high armor. In a short 15 second fight assuming its a Gallente assault vs a Caldari assault in repair a Gallente would repair 120 armor HP while a Caldari would repair 312.5 shields.
And shields are more resistant to damage, there are 33% more weapons that kill armor vs shields, they also get a 60% damage reduction from explosive weapons (a caldari can't be one shotted by core locus grenades) then you have the faster soeed which has some small damage mitigation by the user and you have the ability to repair your entire buffer of HP in 20 seconds. The only weapon that can actually hurt shields is a charged SCR but those are rarely used, same with lasers in comparison to all of the weapons used to kill armor, mass drivers, grenades, sniper rifles, HMG, SMG.
Actually there would be no difference between a Cal Logi vs a Gal Logi, except the Caldari logistics will have a lower repair to his dual tank which like you said at the beginning of your post is a beast of its own. Also I am a Logi, a Gallente logistics and I went logi because it is impossible to have a proper armor tank without a passive regen, and even then the 5 HP/s is way to low to properly tank. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1247
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Posted - 2013.08.26 21:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vespasian Andendare wrote:No. Time to realize that there will be differences with armor/shield tanking, and regen is one of them. If you're sad your armor is being depleted on your shield suit, there are nanohives that will fix that problem for you. The fact that you realize these exist, but state that their under-utilization is cause for an across-the-board buff for passive armor regen, hurts your argument.
Given that there are solutions for a depleted armor amount--namely armor rep nanohives and Logi mercs--there doesn't need to be a buff so much as everyone needs to realize and use the tools at their disposal. This is a team game, and teams of people should think about coordinating their actions so that their team is stronger overall. If one more merc has to step up with a repair tool, then so be it. Problem solved.
Another thing to realize is that there's going to be fitting choices. Do I have more buffer? More repair? Faster shield regen? More shields? Etc. Some of those fitting choices are going to mean that you can't have everything you want. If you want to repair your armor, use the module for that (or, of course, the aforementioned hive/Logi). "But I want to use that lowslot for an energizer!" Well, then you don't have armor repair. That's the way fitting choices work.
If any buffs are needed, I would submit that the actual armor repair amounts provided by the modules themselves could use a slight bump, but only because armor repair---which happens regardless of in-combat or out--is supposed to be an "over-the-course-of-the-fight" type of tank. Meaning, shield is about buffer (surviving long enough in combat using speed/raw shield amount to kill before being killed) and armor is about tanking sustained damage while killing your opponent. At least that's what their regen/module active time/etc. indicate. However, with the armor plate buff incoming, it would seem that CCP has in mind that an armor buffer *could* be larger than a shield buffer, albeit with a speed penalty, but of course it would not regen at that point.
What I am suggesting does not make armor the same as shields, shields would still repair way faster than armor. All I am asking is for armor suits to at least have the choice of going all buffer vs small buffer high rep. You might think well go all buffer and get a Logibro but how many logibros do you see constantly repairing, or providing any triage support aside from reviving? Aside from myself every once in a while it is very rare, and that is because it is more useful to provide support fire/kills than actual triage support. You could say buff repairers but as long as they continue to take a gun off the field or not provide a massive repair they will always be rather useless, hell many corps say not to use repair tools and injectors in PC, and triage hives die extremely fast.
On the fitting choices if thats the case why not remove the passive repair for shields then? Shields get everything, they get speed, decent buffer, passive repair and the highest repair, and the most utility.
Honestly the armor buff brings shields and armor to about the same overall damage resistance, shields are about 25-30% more resistant to damage than armor and a pure armor suit can get around 750 armor HP while a pure shield suit can get around 550 shield HP, 550(1.3)=715, but keep in mind this 750 is only attainable by using complex armor plates on Gallente assault, but because we are forced to use a repair we still get lower HP and lower repair. This doesnt even account for sacrificing our tank for utility modules which are all in the low slots so by giving us a passive repair we also get the chance of using atleast one utility module without gimping our tank (something a shield suit doesnt need to worry about aside from damage modules). |
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