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Hobo on Fire
Goonfeet
Top Men.
36
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Posted - 2013.08.23 18:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off, I do not believe Swarms need to be buffed or nerfed as far as damage, range, ROF or lock on time go. I don't think the 1.4 changes will make them stupidly over-powered, but I don't think they really needed the changes they are receiving either. To all you tankers who think invisible missiles are unfair: I agree.
What I want to discuss is the poorly thought out operation of the launcher itself, in game. I have 3 suggestions to make the Swarm launcher an actual weapon instead of a shoulder mounted Rube Goldberg anti-vehicle device, all of which are explained in detail below. The short version:
1)Separate targeting from firing by using the ADS button to lock on.
2)Missiles should travel up and to either side before snapping towards the target, instead of just horizontally to the left and right.
3)Missiles should be spaced evenly across the horizontal plane, instead of all the way left or all the way right.
These 3 suggestions could all be implemented separately, but I feel would be best utilized together, especially points 2 and 3.
1st point - Targeting.
In the weapons current form, the only way to break a lock on an undesired target (as in, accidentally locking onto a supply depot instead of the LAV next to it) is to either fire (wasting a shot) or turn away from the target until you lose the lock on.
I propose that targeting and firing be split to separate buttons. Swarms do not make use of the aim-down-sights button, so this is a natural choice: the "fire" button is disabled unless a target is acquired via the ADS button, and if a player needs to switch targets after locking on, they simply release the ADS button and try again. Attempting to fire without a lock could even bring up some sort of message on the players HUD telling them that a lock on is required. Including what controller button/key is mapped to ADS in such a message would be useful for players who haven't read the patch notes when the change goes active.
2nd point - Firing/Flight to target.
Swarm missiles in-flight target the bottom of vehicles, which combined with the salvo spreading horizontally across the ground, make the missiles very likely to impact low obstacles or small shifts in terrain before reaching the target. Many swarm users counter this by locking onto a target, then aiming the launcher up into the air before releasing the shot, giving the missiles a little extra elevation before they snap towards the target. Again, we are looking away from our (likely hostile) target, just to make our weapon work.
Well, these missiles already defy physics by jumping out of the barrel to the left and right, so why not up? Make the missiles travel Up and left/up and right instead of just spreading horizontally across the ground. A player launching a swarm volley will see their missiles rise in a "V" pattern away from them, instead of simply kicking out to the left and right. Now we can keep our eyes on the target and not worry about all our missiles hitting that little speed-bump instead of the exposed, stationary turret behind it. A complimentary (or alternative) idea for this would be to alter what point on an object the missiles try to seek into, either center mass or a "heat source" on vehicles, and the actual turrets on turret installations instead of the base, since these are more likely to be exposed.
3rd point - Flight to Target part II
When a volley of Swarm missiles is launched, the individual missiles all kick out an equal distance to either the left or right, effectively causing clusters of missiles to home in on a target from two directions. What this unfortunately creates is a weapon system that requires a direct line of sight to acquire a target, but doesn't fire along that path. It is entirely possible for a swarm user to have an unobstructed view to a stationary target, but be unable to hit it because any missiles would collide with obstacles to the left or right of the line of sight. I propose that the missiles be spread evenly from left to right, instead of all kicking out to the left and right extremes. The first left/right pair of missiles would only be spread by two meters, with the line of sight at the center-line. The next pair of missiles would kick farther out before snapping onto the target, while missiles 5 and 6 (from advanced and prototype launchers) would cover the same horizontal distance from the center-line as the current iteration of missiles does; this would give the the top tier launchers the widest "spread" to avoid the most obstacles. Alternatively, the second pair of missiles would travel the furthest out (so even standard launchers would cover the same horizontal "spread" as the current launchers) with the fifth and sixth missiles filling the gap.
If this is hard to picture, imagine the "o" below as the line of sight between launcher and target, with each number representing an individual missile, in order of launch out of the tube. Missile 5 would only exist with advanced or higher launchers, missile 6 only for prototypes.
Current launch pattern:
135_____o_____246
Proposed launch pattern:
5__3__1_o_2__4__6
Alternate Proposal:
3__5__1_o_2__6__4
My ideal launch pattern combining the vertical spread from point 2 with the horizontal spread from point 3:
5_______________6
___3_________4
______1___2
________o
If a weapon was designed like this in the real world, these changes would have been demanded before anyone adopted it. We tolerate this in Dust because so far our only alternatives are plasma cannons that are even more of a hassle to use, forge guns we can't carry on our light and medium frame suits, or grenades that require us to get uncomfortably close to that big armored thing shooting at us. The Swarm launcher is a solid weapon, it just needs streamlining. |
Hobo on Fire
Goonfeet
Top Men.
36
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 18:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
And please CCP, if the 1.4 changes to Swarms do make it genuinely overpowered, just bring it back down to where it is now, don't nerf it into uselessness. |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
16
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Posted - 2013.08.23 18:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1
One of the more well thought out posts I've seen in a while. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
643
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 18:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hobo on Fire wrote:
1)Separate targeting from firing by using the ADS button to lock on.
Didn't need to read the rest of your post, just need to read this! |
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 19:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
I am a vehicle pilot, but ill leave the QQ out of here as much as possible.
Definitely agree with separating lock on and firing. The way it is now makes no sense, and would definitely help with target acquisition. This change should be implemented immediately, and and I'm surprised it wasn't from the beginning.
Now, for missiles being in a V shape. We both know the issue with proto av vs standard vehicles. Implementing this right now would only exacerbate that problem. To that end, I propose changing the missiles flying towards the middle of a vehicle, but have the missiles leave the launcher in a random pattern. Or have missiles lock on to various points of a vehicle, and have the pattern remain the same. This makes utilizing micro terrain advantageous, as some missiles will inevitably hit the terrain, but a few will hit the vehicle and cause damage. |
ALPHA DECRIPTER
M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
310
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Posted - 2013.08.23 20:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:I am a vehicle pilot, but ill leave the QQ out of here as much as possible.
Definitely agree with separating lock on and firing. The way it is now makes no sense, and would definitely help with target acquisition. This change should be implemented immediately, and and I'm surprised it wasn't from the beginning.
Now, for missiles being in a V shape. We both know the issue with proto av vs standard vehicles. Implementing this right now would only exacerbate that problem. To that end, I propose changing the missiles flying towards the middle of a vehicle, but have the missiles leave the launcher in a random pattern. Or have missiles lock on to various points of a vehicle, and have the pattern remain the same. This makes utilizing micro terrain advantageous, as some missiles will inevitably hit the terrain, but a few will hit the vehicle and cause damage.
Well that was constructive and I actually agree with you 
@OP: Thanks for the well thought out thread
`Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST . |
Hobo on Fire
Goonfeet
Top Men.
40
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 20:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:
Now, for missiles being in a V shape. We both know the issue with proto av vs standard vehicles. Implementing this right now would only exacerbate that problem. To that end, I propose changing the missiles flying towards the middle of a vehicle, but have the missiles leave the launcher in a random pattern. Or have missiles lock on to various points of a vehicle, and have the pattern remain the same. This makes utilizing micro terrain advantageous, as some missiles will inevitably hit the terrain, but a few will hit the vehicle and cause damage.
Most of what I based these ideas on is "why would you design a weapon like this?" People already point the swarm launchers up in the air when firing, the V pattern would just do this for them so they don't have to aim away from the target, while sticking with "physics" already in the game. It's meant to make the weapon friendlier to players less experienced with how the missiles travel to the target.
Also, in my "final form" concept, the missiles at the bottom of the "V" wouldn't be any higher than they are now, so micro terrain still provides some cover, it just won't protect from the full volley. That said, this part:
Alena Ventrallis wrote:
...have the missiles leave the launcher in a random pattern...
I would actually be OK with. The in-game description of the weapon mentions "random variations in each missiles flight path" to ensure that at least some of the missiles hit. As long as these random variations don't nose dive half my missiles into the dirt, the system works. |
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