DUST Search - Some math related whines concerning dropsuit modules.

George Moros wrote:

Although I found topics that address some aspects, I'm not sure whether this matter has been discussed in detail previously.

I'd like to bring to community's attention a (IMHO) rather illogical and new-player-unfriendly state of affairs with some module types.

First example: Shield extenders

CPU / PG / In-game-bonus / Cost for basic, advanced and prototype modules are:

18/3/22/975 ; 36/6/33/2610 ; 54/11/66/4275

After doing some basic math and/or playing with DFT you can see that, for example, fitting 2 advanced SE gives you the same HP bonus (for simplicity, I'm assuming all skills at 5) as fitting just one proto SE. Not only it uses one less high slot, but it also costs 16 CPU, 1 PG and 945 ISK LESS for the same HP bonus.

Simply put, if you have Shield Extension skill trained at 5, there's very little reason to fit anything but proto SE. This puts players with SE 5 at a huge advantage over those that don't have it maxed.

Second example: Damage modifiers

CPU / PG / In-game-bonus / Cost for basic, advanced and prototype modules are:

23/3/3/1275 ; 45/5/5/3420 ; 68/9/10/5595

Again, fitting 2 advanced damage mods gives you the same bonus as one proto damage mod (actually, due to stacking penalty, even slightly less). And again, proto uses up one less high slot, 22 CPU, 1 PG and 1245 ISK. So, yet again, having HWU trained at 5 gives you a huge advantage over those players that don't.

Also take notice that due to stacking penalty, it would take an infinite number of basic damage mods to achieve the same bonus as one single proto damage mod!

IMHO, such numbers not only go against the logic of diminishing returns for maxing out skills, which character development mechanic is supposed to follow (or maybe it isn't?), but additionally aggravate the problem of "noobs vs vets" imbalance.

Does anyone else sees a problem with that or is it just me?

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George Moros WarRavens League of Infamy 70	Posted - 2013.08.23 10:43:00 - [1] - Quote Although I found topics that address some aspects, I'm not sure whether this matter has been discussed in detail previously. I'd like to bring to community's attention a (IMHO) rather illogical and new-player-unfriendly state of affairs with some module types. First example: Shield extenders CPU / PG / In-game-bonus / Cost for basic, advanced and prototype modules are: 18/3/22/975 ; 36/6/33/2610 ; 54/11/66/4275 After doing some basic math and/or playing with DFT you can see that, for example, fitting 2 advanced SE gives you the same HP bonus (for simplicity, I'm assuming all skills at 5) as fitting just one proto SE. Not only it uses one less high slot, but it also costs 16 CPU, 1 PG and 945 ISK LESS for the same HP bonus. Simply put, if you have Shield Extension skill trained at 5, there's very little reason to fit anything but proto SE. This puts players with SE 5 at a huge advantage over those that don't have it maxed. Second example: Damage modifiers CPU / PG / In-game-bonus / Cost for basic, advanced and prototype modules are: 23/3/3/1275 ; 45/5/5/3420 ; 68/9/10/5595 Again, fitting 2 advanced damage mods gives you the same bonus as one proto damage mod (actually, due to stacking penalty, even slightly less). And again, proto uses up one less high slot, 22 CPU, 1 PG and 1245 ISK. So, yet again, having HWU trained at 5 gives you a huge advantage over those players that don't. Also take notice that due to stacking penalty, it would take an infinite number of basic damage mods to achieve the same bonus as one single proto damage mod! IMHO, such numbers not only go against the logic of diminishing returns for maxing out skills, which character development mechanic is supposed to follow (or maybe it isn't?), but additionally aggravate the problem of "noobs vs vets" imbalance. Does anyone else sees a problem with that or is it just me?
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion 249	Posted - 2013.08.23 11:21:00 - [2] - Quote I'm okay with this, because the hit points per unit of cpu/pg are similar between tiers - complex stuff is just more slot-efficient if you have the fitting space, which is a nice touch. I wish armor plates were more like this too, because it would discourage dual tanking. In fact, I even have some posts about it, with graphs. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1177379#post1177379 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1177495#post1177495
shady merc RisingSuns 17	Posted - 2013.08.23 11:26:00 - [3] - Quote I completely agree with you. No module should double it bonus from adv to proto. Question for you which module do you feel is laid out the best in terms cpu/pg/isk/bonus per teir. I personally think the shield regulator is about on bar for going from adv to proto level .
George Moros WarRavens League of Infamy 70	Posted - 2013.08.23 11:28:00 - [4] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: I'm okay with this, because the hit points per unit of cpu/pg are similar between tiers - complex stuff is just more slot-efficient if you have the fitting space, which is a nice touch. I wish armor plates were more like this too, because it would discourage dual tanking. In fact, I even have some posts about it, with graphs. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1177379#post1177379 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1177495#post1177495 Having an extra slot available for the same HP bonus is in of itself a huge boon. This is actually the main source of the problem. You get that extra slot with nothing else but having your skill high enough. CPU/PG/ISK cost reduction is just a bonus.
George Moros WarRavens League of Infamy 70	Posted - 2013.08.23 11:43:00 - [5] - Quote shady merc wrote: I completely agree with you. No module should double it bonus from adv to proto. Question for you which module do you feel is laid out the best in terms cpu/pg/isk/bonus per teir. I personally think the shield regulator is about on bar for going from adv to proto level . If you want to see a much better balanced approach to modules, just look at EVE. Example: Ballistic Control System (that's basically damage modifier for missile launchers) "Basic": 35 CPU, 1 PG, 7% damage bonus, 7.5% RoF bonus, meta level 1 "Advanced": 42 CPU, 1 PG, 9.8% damage bonus, 10.5% RoF bonus, meta level 4 "Proto": 24 CPU, 1 PG, 12.5% damage bonus, 10.5% RoF bonus, meta level 8 There is no basic/advanced/proto categorization in EVE, but I based them on item's meta level. I won't mention ISK cost here, as EVE prices are market-driven and not preset by CCP, but "proto" level gear in EVE usually has quite a hefty price tag, probably comparable to "officer" gear in DUST. Also, all those items have exactly the same skill requirements, and they are minimal (1). The only item that has higher requirement is "tech II" BCS, which requires skill at 4, and is meta level 5.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 684	Posted - 2013.08.23 16:09:00 - [6] - Quote Yeah, although I think the best way to change it is to make enhanced shield extenders give 44 instead of 33. That way they're more in line with the regulators AND the new reactive plates. This would give players a reason to use enhanced over complex if they needed some more cpu/pg without sacrificing a ton.
low genius the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance 344	Posted - 2013.08.23 16:10:00 - [7] - Quote George Moros wrote: Although I found topics that address some aspects, I'm not sure whether this matter has been discussed in detail previously. I'd like to bring to community's attention a (IMHO) rather illogical and new-player-unfriendly state of affairs with some module types. First example: Shield extenders CPU / PG / In-game-bonus / Cost for basic, advanced and prototype modules are: 18/3/22/975 ; 36/6/33/2610 ; 54/11/66/4275 After doing some basic math and/or playing with DFT you can see that, for example, fitting 2 advanced SE gives you the same HP bonus (for simplicity, I'm assuming all skills at 5) as fitting just one proto SE. Not only it uses one less high slot, but it also costs 16 CPU, 1 PG and 945 ISK LESS for the same HP bonus. Simply put, if you have Shield Extension skill trained at 5, there's very little reason to fit anything but proto SE. This puts players with SE 5 at a huge advantage over those that don't have it maxed. Second example: Damage modifiers CPU / PG / In-game-bonus / Cost for basic, advanced and prototype modules are: 23/3/3/1275 ; 45/5/5/3420 ; 68/9/10/5595 Again, fitting 2 advanced damage mods gives you the same bonus as one proto damage mod (actually, due to stacking penalty, even slightly less). And again, proto uses up one less high slot, 22 CPU, 1 PG and 1245 ISK. So, yet again, having HWU trained at 5 gives you a huge advantage over those players that don't. Also take notice that due to stacking penalty, it would take an infinite number of basic damage mods to achieve the same bonus as one single proto damage mod! IMHO, such numbers not only go against the logic of diminishing returns for maxing out skills, which character development mechanic is supposed to follow (or maybe it isn't?), but additionally aggravate the problem of "noobs vs vets" imbalance. Does anyone else sees a problem with that or is it just me? i don't see any problem with this.
gargantuise aaron Sanguine Knights 106	Posted - 2013.08.23 17:34:00 - [8] - Quote I don't have a problem with it.
George Moros WarRavens League of Infamy 70	Posted - 2013.08.23 18:14:00 - [9] - Quote gargantuise aaron wrote: I don't have a problem with it. It would help the discussion if you mention why you don't have a problem with it. I wasn't trying to make a yes/no poll here.


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