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Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
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Posted - 2013.08.23 00:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Galm Fae wrote:I don't see how CONCORD could clear a strike by the Empire that would mean the destruction and enslavement of the entire Republic. This is a one sided arguement, the Amarr have no grounds for invasion.
The empires (or associated entities, such as the Minmatar Elders) have been known to either circumvent or outright attack CONCORD when there are sufficient interests at stake.
Nation states, in dealing among themselves, exist in a state of anarchy. This is as true for interstellar empires as it would have been for a planetary nation. Complying with international law is more a matter of public relations and keeping on good terms with one's neighbors than of crime and punishment the way we normally think of it, and CONCORD is more mediator than police officer, where the empires are concerned.
Actually, this is pretty much the way capsuleers relate to one another, as well-- as mini nation states-- though in their case CONCORD is a little bit more of a force to be reckoned with. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
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200
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Posted - 2013.08.23 05:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Galm Fae wrote:How can anyone act as moderator in this situation though? They can't authorize "just a little bit" of inquisition. You are either for a tyrannical foreign power invading a populous and enslaving them, or you chose to stand with those who oppose it. This appeasement towards the Amarr to stop the escalation of conflict is just... Just... Total bullshit frankly! We should be laying down sanctions on the Empire, not aiding their conquest.
... Inquisition? I ... do not think this word means quite what you seem to think.
Leaving that aside, there are many ways to play a neutral role-- notably, standing back and observing. The Sisters of Eve will be sending medical craft and supplies to both sides, for example. Most capsuleers will similarly take no side, busying themselves with their private affairs.
CONCORD will probably keep the peace for as long as it can, then stand back, cluck its tongue disapprovingly, and try to drag all concerned to some kind of truce as soon as anything that vaguely resembles a stalemate appears.
The interesting question is what the State will do. The Caldari don't approve of conquerors, generally (they tend to be willing to conquer more than just our enemies), but the Amarr are allies, however much some might wish it were otherwise. At most, I suspect that the State will continue its simmering conflict against the Gallente, and only involve itself to mirror and counteract Federal involvement. That, of course, could lead to quite a conflagration if the pattern escalates. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
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Posted - 2013.08.23 15:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Galm Fae wrote:Is that not the word? I was led to believe that the term in context to the Amarr was in reference to some form of tribunal in charge of investigating, uprooting, and punishing those guilty of heresy in the name of their scriptures. I didn't mean it literally of course, I am sure any execution of heretics at the hands of the Amarr during a Reclamation would be a bit more extrajudicial than that. I am no holy man and as you can imagine given our career choice memories can sometimes become horribly disjointed, so I could be wrong. It matters little, I suppose I should be happy that I am not drooling from the mouth and uttering a word salad right now from my old implants.
Semantics aside, you know my opinions on the Empire Ryeon-haani. No use flogging a dead horse. Were it up to me, I would see the current Empire leveled, the Khanid placed in power, and the Amarr Empire made into a nice little puppet state for us Caldari.
Ironic, I know.
I am aware of your dissident, and rather extreme, views, yes, Fae-haan. You seem to have a somewhat muddled impression of what a Reclaiming is about, however, which might have something to do with it.
Some Amarr may very well believe that the Matari, having rebelled, are beyond saving, and a few may act accordingly. However, that will not be the majority, and the vast majority of even the extremists will follow orders, rendering their own views largely irrelevant.
An important distinction that you seem to be missing is the one between "heretic" (offshoots of the Amarrian faith such as the Sani Sabik and EoM), which are likely to be killed where possible (they have, as I understand the logic goes, turned away from heaven's door once and cannot, therefore, gain entry) and "heathen," which applies to complete unbelievers: most Matari, most Gallente ... you, me, most everybody who isn't either good Amarr or a heretic.
The templars we have seen here on the IGS are probably pretty typical of the Amarrian military attitude overall: they see themselves as holy warriors, a positive and civilizing force. Killing heretics purges a corruption from the universe. Killing heathens, however, defeats the purpose of the Reclaiming: they want us to see the Truth, which is hard for us to do if we're dead. They want to subject us to a sort of spiritual apprenticeship, instead: slavery.
Slavery may be worse than death in the eyes of some, so this may be cold comfort, but if the Amarr were successful in their invasion I doubt that you would see many incidents of mass slaughter. The Starkmanir would be an obvious historical counter-example, of course, but that wasn't what you'd call "standard operating procedure."
The Amarr are just people, Fae-haan. There's nothing especially monstrous about them; in fact, their faith seems to act as an admirably effective unifying force. Humanity would survive and might even thrive under their rule, with or without "God."
Of course, to be ruled over by such a questionably-benevolent illusion, we would have to give up what we know, what we have learned. We would have to lose ourselves and become them. I agree with you that the price is too high, but I also do not believe that we must therefore treat them like the deadliest of enemies.
The Amarr and Gallente are alike in self-righteousness and disdain for others' ways of life. The ways of the Gallente may be gentler, but they would be no less deadly to our people over time. And the eyes of the Gallente are on us already.
You have seen their soldiers, here, calling for our destruction. Perhaps their diplomats are more ... diplomatic ... but the Federation has been steadily trying to erode State society for decades. Heth-hnolku's rise was the unintended result of those efforts.
Perhaps you see the Amarr as monstrous and our association with them as unconscionable, but you forget too soon and too easily. You have swallowed the individualists' bait, forgetting how fine and subtle the hook is, and they have dragged you to their side, jaalan. The Gallente are no more monsters than the Amarr, but their way of life is antithetical to ours, and they, unlike the Amarr, actively and presently seek our destruction as a society.
You have been played. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
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Posted - 2013.08.23 20:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Galm Fae wrote:Is that not what the Matari have done though? The cornerstone of the Minmatar was the denial of the Amarr god and the unification of enslaved peoples into one Republic. "Heretic" fits them perfectly. I am sure some Matari would wear that title proudly.
If they thought it would irritate the Amarr, no doubt many would. "Heretic," however, does not fit them especially well. It would be more accurate to say that they have reverted to their old, "heathen" beliefs-- that the Amarr were trying to lead them to heaven's gate, but they broke free somewhere along the way.
A "heretic," practically speaking, is defined by a belief based in the same framework as that of the Amarr. The Amarr consider heresy a corruption of the Truth, which is horribly dangerous in ways that mere heathen worship is not. Notably, heathen beliefs have comparatively minimal potential to corrupt the faithful. Heresy, on the other hand, spreads like fire or cancer.
The Amarr may one day run out of heathens to convert. Heresy, however, is a permanent problem because it attacks them from within.
That said, a few Amarr may agree with you, Fae-haan, but most do not appear to. And, respectfully, it's their faith to interpret.
Quote:The reason why they have not been declared as such is simply a matter of politics and effciency. There are far too many of them to wipe out without the entire universe taking notice, and without the slave labor that drove the Amarr their society begins to erode. It would be much more convenient to call the invasion a Reclamation and feed off the spoils it provides in not killing off the enemy. They need the Minmatar. Even if the age of slavery is coming to an end, the Amarr will still need a working man's social caste that the Republic will fill beautifully.
No doubt there are economic considerations and such at play. You don't get to be a great power by being blindly idealistic. That said, I don't see much sign that the Amarr are exactly dependent on slave labor for all purposes. They use it, certainly, but theirs is not a society lacking underclasses or tradespeople.
Quote:Not that it really makes a difference how many people they try to enslave, because a war with the Republic would be an outright slaughter. If the Minmatar are threatened by an all-out invasion, they would enter a state of total war. Every man, woman and child would fight and organize against the Amarr in the name of the Republic that they had worked so hard to form. As you said, suuolo, for them it is truely better to die on their feet than live on their knees.
For some, not for all. Not even for most.
In survival there is the chance for renewed revolt. To fight to the death because that is your duty is merely fulfilling a role; that is what I would do. However, to fight to the death with no duty to fight at all is an act of despair.
Do the Matari strike you as being close to despair?
Quote:War with the Federation is a stalemate lost in a quagmire of political intrigue. Clearly whatever we are doing just isn't working, so why do we keep insisting on throwing resources into the meatgrinder over an extended period of time when we can throw in a game-changer and end it now? In organizing to place the Khanid in power, we could talk down a war with the Matari that would bleed resources from our little marionette empire, leaving the Republic to their own devices. We could then redirect the attention of the Amarr into aiding in the war against the Federation directly.
It wouldn't be the first time a move on that scale has succeeded.
Fae-haan, the Khanid Kingdom is a breakaway power from the Empire generally, but it has recently come back into the Imperial fold on friendly terms. King Khanid is an arguably-renegade imperial heir. They do retain the institutions of slavery and Reclaiming. What's more, unlike the Amarr, they use transcranial microcontroler technology to manipulate many of their slave populations, which is arguably more humane than vitoc but makes successful revolt much less probable.
They are not going to back the State against the Empire, nor would they side with the Matari. Even if they did, the resulting power would be no puppet of ours, would have fewer qualms about hybridizing Amarrian technology with less antique forms, and would likely be back on its feet and seeking vengeance within a generation or two.
Also, what is an already power-obsessed people likely to reach for if you give their holy empire an actual stomping? You'd be giving the Sani quite the opening. Next time the Amarr move to conquer, they may very well actually just kill everyone who stands against them.
In the meantime, they are unlikely to be able to provide much aid in a war against the Federation or the outer powers (including, let's not forget, Sansha's Nation), and you're gambling that the Matari would actually turn away from the Federation, who, lest we forget, are the ones who financed the Matari revolt back in the day.
Lest we also forget, the State has the lowest population of any empire. The Amarr have the largest. We are not likely to be able to hold what we take. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
201
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Posted - 2013.08.25 15:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Galm Fae wrote:Then again... A coup would only require paramilitary support. Possibly without the direct involvement of any Caldari Navy ships in the first place.
This is why I love our debates, you help me think things through. Granted, I probably will never be able to put these plans into motion on my own, but it is nice to have plans. Before these talks, I just wanted to float around the universe and observe politics from the frontlines. Now I feel like maybe I can make a change.
Always a pleasure.
I am ... glad that you find our talks inspirational, Fae-haan.
I do wish that you did not persist quite so strongly in the forgemaster's error. Perhaps it is only experience that teaches that shaping the world to your desires is not only a matter of determining where and how hard to strike it. |
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